Hmmmm interesting Undertow? You are waiting for resistors or caps? This is the first time I have even heard they were coming.
My e-mail Wednesday said they were shipped Monday and we should see them Wednesday or Thursday. No word. I am mostly concerned about how they sound not how fast they get here as I will have them for 20+ years. (I hope) |
Yeah well I have had the run around for about 3 weeks now.. They first said they shipped on the 1st, than that they left the 10th(friday) or something, now they say finally they shipped this last couple days and they were to be in yesterday or today, still nothing... Not sure if they are just stringing everyone along to make it look like its on the other side being the issue, and know its a very expensive order so trying to make it seem like some kinda customer service, they could not even come up with what carrier they use to get them from denmark, or tracking #, nothing, or just flat out can't get them because of customs or something.. I have been reading canada is seriously backed up at the border, so who knows. I wish there was a distributor in the states, now we gotta wait to ship them back thru customs into the states all over again... |
Undertow
No I think they left Denmark on Monday. They are not to me yet. By the weekend would be nice but will see. I think they fly them over as parts said it does not take long. |
Volleyguy
Shipped to who? You or just from duelund to partsconnexion? |
After this project is done I am thinking of doing a rebuild of the Linn speaker crossover. I read on the Duelund site there is a link back to Audiogon with a another guy who was shocked at what Linn used for crossover parts. I just want to say in Linn's defense it is not just them but most mass producers of speakers use shockingly cheap parts.
When this started months ago I did not even know if spending on Sonicaps was worth it. Now I have no higher priority than crossover parts. I never thought that would happen. |
Good news the capacitors have been shipped. Right on the 6 weeks guys were saying.
I know some guys are wondering about the caps and what is the difference from VSF and CAST. Should get an idea very soon.
I can say I am becoming Duelund ruined. You don't even want to listen to anything else. I do not want to hear the Linn speakers or the vintage cap Klipsch speaker. I know FOR SURE my favourite is the partial Duelund speaker and even one speaker is better than listening to the other system with two. Time has not worn out the Duelund effect.
What I am going to do is go to the high end store when this is done to hear there speakers again. I live fairly close to a store with systems of 100k+++. The Duelund makes my Linn speakers sound broken. I just want to make sure they are not. The store has top end tube gear and top Dynaudio and VPI HRX's and the top SME turntables as well. |
After hooking back up the LP12 into the vintage system I remembered why I love it.
I admit to being somewhat confused when I first got vintage tube amp and Duelund's in tweeters. The Lp12 did not sound good and digital did? I never felt that way before! The vintage amp has the seductive midrange but the extreme's (for sure bottom end) is maybe lacking. The Karik for sure is not as alive as the LP12.
So now things returning to normal as I prefer the turntable again in both systems. I have to admit though tubes do make digital much better as I thought the Karik was awful before. (in the all Linn system compared to LP12 it still is)
I find this audio interesting why so many guys will get a whole system based on what they like and then sell it all off and go in another direction. What causes that boredom? or do we start to hear something with some set of chacteristics we now like better?
It would be much cheaper to be like my daughter listening to a horrific digital download on the DVD player through the TV speakers and she thinks it sounds good! She doesn't hear the phasy sound.
5 weeks and counting should be soon according to what the guys are saying. |
Hooked back up the turntable into the vintage amp and it seems quite good.
Not sure what I did the first time. Maybe it was not grounded right as it was noisy and now it is not at all.
Hooking back up the main system which has not even been running. (and not really missed) |
They normally take 5-6 weeks if they are a standard value. Longer for special values. |
Stormen those are huge! Can not even imagine how much they cost!
Stormen will I be able to tell the difference from VSF and CAST? Underow (I think) thought I may be into the point of dimishing returns. I wish they would just hurry up and get here.
Looking forward to it. What would you discribe the difference to be? (from VSF)
Another question how long did yours normally take to get built? Just shy of a month now. I know they just got back from holidays when my order was in. |
http://www.duelundaudio.com/News.asp just to tide you over, untill you get your caps. |
For guys waiting to hear about the CAST caps they are still coming. I have talked to partsconnexion and they will let me know when in. Put the stereo back to vintage tube amp and vintage mid cap and Duelund tweeter. By far the best combo I have. (in fact don't like any other combo)
Very excited about the CAST caps. It will be almost a month later this week. I know the caps take several days just to make.
Expectations are to have MUCH less resonance than the vintage and more detail as they are copper as opposed to aluminum in the vintage. This is likely the most excited I have been about an audio product coming. I am also curious as to how much better the highs will get. Right now the signal goes through the vintage and then to Duelund. I expect improvement there just because noise will not be added by the vintage caps. The Duelund is not better though with Mundorf (mid cap) than vintage. (the plastic effect of Mundorf seems to overwhelm the quieter cap)
I will also post on the difference that I find in the tweeter caps from VSF and CAST. I have enough to run one speaker with CAST tweeter caps as well. I have been told it won't be as big a difference as from the vintage to VSF. (CAST vs VSF) I would expect not and am prepared for that. (as the VSF is already excellent) |
Tried to test the vintage amp on the Linn speakers and this did not work as the speakers are set up for twi-wiring and I would need the bars to use single wire.
What was I thinking. |
One thing I wish Tony would do is go through his ratings and knock the numbers down. If a Duelund VSF is a 12.5 (out of 10) it gives the impression of stuff being to high. Make the Duelund (or whatever the reference is) a 10 and then put the Mundorf Supreme down to 6.5 and the Solens at 4. That would reflect more reality. That would say most factory speakers use a 3 or 4 (out of 10) part and a upgrade to to Supreme would be a upgrade to a pass from a failure. Right now it looks like everything above 10 out of 10 is gravy! (or something crazy)
The numbers he uses make it look like most are really, really good and some (like Duelund) are just stupid good (like 12.5/10) and I disagree with that. Undertow talked about dimishing returns and stuff like Tony's review make it seem that way, because if 10 is perfect why get 12??? |
I see that Face.
Is the foil cap Obligatto new as well???
I was waiting with baited breath on the CAST review. Somewhat nervous as well. I had this fear of looking down and seeing a 10 or something on the CAST! I hope to see a 14! (and new reference)
I am back to where the test started one speaker on vintage foils and the other on poly's. Only now it is Mundorf instead of Sonicaps. Back to SS for comparison. The sound is similiar except the Mundorf have more dynamics. A beefier sound. Funny my thoughts have not changed very much on caps since the start. |
Tony Gee updated his page again.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html |
Last couple of days digital on SS and all Mundorf. YUCK! I now see why I went back to vinyl. That just makes it much more tolerable. Tomorrow back to foil caps and SS and vinyl for one more try. Until I got the vintage tube amp I thought my CD player sucked! I was going to sell it. I thought vinyl was the only thing to listen too.
Does anyone want some Mundorf caps? As soon as I get the Duelund I will do one last compare and then sell off the Mundorf. The biggest comparison for the Duelund will be to better the vintage, which is still the best in the midrange.
Just PM me. This will make an affordable try for anyone. If not they are going on e-bay. Values are Mundorf Supreme 2.2uf, 10uf, 3.3uf and a Mundorf Silver in Oil at 2.2uf.
I have a friend coming by with a vintage SET amp and a few others once the caps are in. He wants to hear for his Khorns as well. |
Undertow I can understand your non belief in the importance of a crossover cap as I admit ONE poly cap in the crossover and all is lost! I do not know why. (I can guess)
I would not say a "one time" base of less echo. The Duelund do much more than that.
No offense taken on the miracle cure with Duelund caps. Although the tweeters caps were the best (new) money I ever spent.
Undertow I did even say I only think the full effect of the Duelund only really shines in a fully non poly system. The Duleund was based on previous prices to me and I do not think I am going crazy as all the other options have proven to be let downs. (not hearing clarity caps) I do not think of Audio as a job of just being "good enough". I fully do admit and said if saving money was an object the vintage foil cap is very good (paired with the Duelund tweeter cap) and of course is free as I already owned it. You are right that these are not valuable speakers. No arguement here. ($500 is a little cheap as the last set sold on e-bay for $3k of similiar vintage) I will say with the vintage foil/Duelund they blow away my Linn speakers by a mile! I just hope the CAST is as good as I hope.
It is nice to hear we are in agreement of the importantance of the crossover allowing a much cheaper speaker to beat the pants off an expensive one if it has good parts. Before this I admit I would have doubted the importantance of the crossover. I just can not afford to try Clarity. I love the sound of Duelund so my only dilema was VSF or CAST. Duelund was bang on what I was looking for. Clarity might be great I do not know. I can just sayall the polys I tried I do not like and even vintage foil was better leading me to cut the chase and stay with foil. Now I hope they just get here soon! |
Well Undertow you could be right and I think you are as that is why I backed away from buying Duelund CAST inductors. Yes even Chris at partsconnextion thinks the tweeter cap being the most important. (and hardest to get right)
The Klipsch of course use and inductor and not a cap for the woofer. I was allowed to add to my Duelund order as it was open before the price increase which was good but allowed a one shot only order. I would have ordered a CAST tweeter cap to hear the difference if that was not the case. You may be right about dimishing returns. I will say the returns are NOT dimished by VSF at least in an no poly system.
You are right about the full range of caps in the system but I (think) are missing by far the biggest point and that is that crossover parts are only powered by the signal. This makes them MUCH more sensitive as they use the signal to power themselves. The "full" range caps in the amp are of course powered by the electricity in the socket and not the signal. This is why both Linn and Steen Duelund believe the crossover will ALWAYS be the weak link of ANY system.
All I was saying is the Duelund is specatular in a foil based system but even ONE plastic cap in the crossover degrades there value in my mind. My reference is still vintage foil cap in the midrange vintage tube amp and Duelund in the tweeter cap. It may switch to CAST in the midrange and (I hope) it does after they are installed. |
By the way I think you are very wrong in that I don't believe in the importance of the crossover caps, I have spent more time and money on speakers and caps than some have on the systems my self in the past!! I just learned there is a certain approach and variables to look at meaning one cap being good universally is very hard to find all the time.. And only reason as a universal cap for the money the MR's are the best yet in this realm my opinion
You are going on a one time experience in just getting a more echo and not really considered refined sounding horn in the first place to calm down and spread out, nothing to much of a miracle did you find here(no offense)
You have spent a lot on caps an a very short time and limited application so what you hear is probably correct, but by no means the best and most efficient method for every situation, so I simply offered a little more logical and more or less true approach to see what is truly necessary or effective for the purpose at hand. You choose to not chance it and spend much more than necessary to be done and never have a question you have the best of the best, thats fine, just suggesting for those where money cannot be spent and they really want to have a solid approach to this, its not always the answer to believe the best has to be all one thing, there is a balance, and it can be obtained without going as far as the combo of using only the like second most expensive capacitor in the world on a 500 dollar pair of speakers. Although I admit I hear what you do in that I would many times now believe a 500 dollar pair of speakers with the best crossover available can beat the pants off a speaker in the 5000 or 10,000 range with a 2 dollar Solen cap in it. |
I think you mis understood the comment... Point being the caps you are using in a crossover are only handling each portion separatley, in otherwords you are using a cap to feed each driver which is only producing a very limited range of audio response. Use a cap in an amp or preamp etc.. And it is feeding the entire range at all times.
\Your dividing up the bands and thats the point of a crossover in the first place. Again simply illustrating there might be a true point of diminishing returns here, using your mundorf on a woofer alone for example will probably perform nearly identical to a CAst or any other in most speakers.. The cast would show more of its performance optimaly on a mid or tweeter alone so to speak.
And in a full range application literally output caps directly in a signal of the electronics exhibit much more of what a cap is capable in with my experience.. Much why many like to use these V-caps and other teflons as they have a bit higher power handling and complete frequency spectrums.. Again in a loudspeaker even these guys testing only used and state that mundorf or duelund was tested in loudspeaker application only for example, mainly because they are too large in size and or just not really designated to be electronic device caps, Although the mundorfs have very high voltage ratings, and thats fine. I have used Mundorfs top caps in electronics, it was much better suited in the crossover, however the clarity MR's and Jantzen superiors are much better in these applications for instance of electronics. |
Undertow we for sure do not feel the same of importantance of the the crossover caps. Limited freq response? I am am confused the mids and highs are run by the mid and tweeter cap. Other than the inductor for the woofer all freq are covered by crossover caps?
As for the differnce from foil Duelund to Mundorf not being in a critical area? It is the biggest difference from any component I have ever heard.
As for the CAST being better maybe not, but the difference from Duelund to Mundorf on tubes is MASSIVE! |
Well my only cavet over the issue is being such a supreme cap so to speak is only being used in a very limited frequency response application.. I would say for the money at that point I hate to say but the VSF is probably 99% of it and you would never know the difference.... If it was a full range audio signal in a tube electronic along with being a major piece in the signal of the system I could see some slight advantage possibly of the cast...
Other than that I am just speaking from an outside point of view knowing I would never pay that much especially for the type of application here. Your electronics might come into play more than you wish after running the cast because now you might have moved to another facet of this thing and really need to feed those horns with something VERY quiet and dynamic to get the optimal results, your pair of capacitors in cost now virtually outweight the entire worth of the whole system it seems.
There is however some glimmer of hope, I never knew the background noise a cap could filter until I heard the MR's, they are dead silent, and I thought the other caps were dead silent before the experience! I assume the cast could have similar results due to this whole talk on internal vibration control character these very new hi end caps are addressing.
Good Luck |
Undertow
I hope and pray you are wrong. (no offense) I hope the CAST is better than the VSF in the crossover. I am only going on the hunch that the CAST is the same but has better damping properties. (what they have been saying) I have talked to Duelund and Burt Doppenberg. They both said the CAST was better but you are right also meaning deminishing rates of return. Better I can live with and say whether or not it is worth the $. Worse would not be good!
I understand the CAST to be much quieter but maybe only really noticeable on horn type speakers. The CAST were designed for horns as horn and noise not being good. Horns are great to reveal everything but that is a double edge sword. |
Another eval of "A Day in the Life" Beatles. I use that because I am sure many people have there music to compare.
The song on vintage tube all Mundorf. (one Supreme one SIO tweeter cap)
Aggressive sounding
The song with Duelund/vintage is about Ringo peacefully in his own space with the orchestra in the background center. You can visualize him all by himself. There is a spot in the end where John is made to float and the orchestra is brought forward. I only knew this after Duelund/vintage.
With the Mundorf the sound is much more aggressive. Ringo is not in his own space and is not drumming in peaceful isolation. The orchestra is overbearing. John does not float. It is not the same soft beautiful subtle song with the same effects.
I always wanted to know what some of the differences were in caps. I know rated 10, 11 or 6 or whatever and Tony touches on it but what does it mean? I know it is easy to say what is wrong with say Bennic (noisy and very harsh)(or in my case Sonicaps lack of dynamics) but what is the difference at the higher level?
This is a very interesting note.
I have praised up the vintage Fisher no end on foil caps and beat up the SS Linn Klout. On the foil caps the Linn Klout sounds awful very mid range shouty. On the Mundorf's now that I have put the Linn Klout back in it at least sounds as good as the tube amp and if not better!!???
So for sure there is something about foil caps and vintage tubes and horns. Likely all voiced together at the same time from the same era.
The Linn Klout on digital sounds Ok on the Mundorf's not as good as vintage tube on foil but certainly not worse than the vintage and I think better.
Somewhat faster and better timing. But neither make "real" instruments in my mind on plastic caps.
I am going to hook back up the Lp12 which will be nice as most of my music is on vinyl and the phono section on the vintage (to me) was awful! |
By the way volley, the MR's are about 25% cheaper than the SIlver/Gold Oils mundorfs top dog, and are about Half the price of the Duelund VSF Cu series
So they are more cost effective and materials used in them is a little more reliable from the history of caps as it goes I guess, as nobody really knows how long the new range of Oil caps will last without breaking down, never really tested time reliability, and I am not making a case for it here at all just thought it was worth mentioning especially with the cost involved obviously deciding to buy these kinds of caps.. |
I would with an educated assessment of what I have experienced say the CAST vs. VSF in a very critical or higher power application will most likely have an edge in some cases, again depending on the application..
However I have experienced as with many things I really know that the VSF in a speaker vs. a Cast I would give the edge to the VSF simply sonically being not too much of a good thing or whatever, and the fact it is definitely at the helm via point of diminishing returns already I am sure, and I feel the same with the MR caps, Even the audio note silver due to cost, or the V-cap would be a turn in the wrong direction in my opinion regardless just based on cost to performance difference alone. Especially looking at the type of speakers or overall frequency range we are talking about here... I still feel the best for the money but impossible to use in most applications due to the physcial size is the Clarity MR now. |
Great work Mike.
I guess the Clarity Cap is very, very good. How does there price compare to Mundorf range? One thing I do find strange is Tony's assesment of Mundorf range and Tempo's? Tempo likes that Supreme better than SIO and Tony places each more expensive Mundorf higher. I have heard many not like Silver/Gold? I do see Tony does not like all foil caps and really just the Duelund's stand out to him.
My biggest concern is that the CAST is better than the already excellent VSF. A nightmare to me would be that the CAST is not as good at more money. Tempo doesn't like SIO more at more money. So $ do not always equal better.
I am running an all Mundorf crossover now with one tweeter SIO the rest Supreme. I have tried on just tubes so far but will try with SS. My LP12 was my main listening and CD just as back-up.
The Mundorf is very good compared to the Bennic in the Linn. All those cheap crossover parts just sound cheap! I am trying to compare Mundorf to just Bennic. If I compare to Duelund/vintage I get frustrated. |
Thats very interesting.. But I bet they are in the 11.5 rating probably equal, I would take the MR purely based on build and future reliability with no OIL.. Especially if in an electronic piece vs. speakers. |
I've only tried the MR's, Sonic Cap Gen I and II, Dayton, and Solen so far.
I emailed Tony Gee about the MR's a week or two ago. Here was his response:
"Hi Mike,
I am not completly finished testing them yet, but so far I find the Clairy Cap MR to be very spatious, they have a very wide and tall image with lots of detail and at the same time they ar quite neutral and smooth. I will probably place them above the Clarity Cap DTAC.
regards,
Tony"
I'm curious to see his final rating since he rated the DTAC a 10.5, Mundorf S/O 10, S/G 11, S/G/O 11.5.
Mike |
I put back in the Mundorf caps in the midrange. What is noticable is the less noise. I remember reading McIntosh quoting higher signal to noise ratio out of there amps using poly caps. This is easy to understand the only thing that would concern me is yes the S/N ratio is higher but what happens to the signal? Is it kind of a CD thing where the noise is lowered but the signal is compromised and the "number" looks better on paper.
I do appreciate the lower Mundorf noise floor. (much lower than vintage) It does improve bass as it reduces noise. PWK had once said there is noise even in a hall to record. I often wonder if that is some of the fake sound to poly caps are they just too quiet? (but Duelund does not sound fake and is very very quiet) Is the sound of poly's unaturally quiet? The friend who liked the all vintage foil caps crossover at first likely thought the reverb sounded like what his mind was expecting things to sound. When you hear a band live it is always a noise filled affair with tons of reverb.
So I guess in a way caps would suit the type of music you listen to and what you want for sound. That is why there is vintage only guys and I suppose they like a "real" sound and lots of reverb.
If one mostly listened to classical you for sure would not want lots of rock concert reverb.
What started this thread was the speakers I always loved I was not liking anymore. Was it me? (getting into my 40's) and not wanting to hear a rock concert all the time. Listening to different music with a different desire. Or were the caps worn out? The tweeter caps for sure produced massive noise!
When the thread first started I prefered the Linn (non horn) sound. The soundstage was bigger and set back farther and was not coming at you like horn speakers.
Now with the tweeter caps and vintage tube the favorite went back to the horns. The Linn's sound very harsh and have almost no upside.
I have now put in an all Mundorf crossover. I will also put in a analog front end with SS later. |
Undertow I did see that price after putting in the post. Not cheap but I do keep hearing how there speakers are better than most for the $. Yes I have heard of the capacitors. I only tried Duelund as they seem to be higher rated than Audio Note. I am sure there foil caps are good though but they do have 10% tolerances which Duelund is 1 or 2% and I do not believe they make to order? I did not find anyone to go crazy over Audio Note caps and they are not cheap? I think Audio Note is the same as Jenssen??? Just rebranded??
I am going to put in an all Mundorf crossover today and put back on the SS. Linn Klout amp and LP12. I think it only fair to use modern amp with modern style (poly cap)
I just want to make sure the foil is not just a good match to vintage tube gear. |
Well I would suppose you heard of the audio note capacitors as we mentioned them a few times in this thread alone
So yes the speakers are another one of their products, but not sure if they are what you would want or need, they are about 10,000 per pair I believe and thats with just a single 8" driver and soft dome tweeter. |
Anyone heard the buzz about Audio Note speakers? I had never heard of them. (30 years with one speaker will do that)
I keep hearing how they sound better than B&W etc for the $. I did check out what they are made of and it is interesting to see that as you move up there line they talk about the upgraded parts. They use at some point foil capacitors and Alnico magnet woofers etc. It is nice to hear companies talking about the quality of components. I read in Stereophile the other day and none of the speaker companies really talked about there crossovers? Like it did not mean everything.
Has anyone ever heard Audio Note? I may check them out for the livingroom. (Klipsch will NEVER get there or I will be divorced) |
Hmmm that's interesting. Face I am not surprised that the Clarity is better than the Sonicaps. Dynamics on the Sonicaps is very weak.
Face any other caps to compare too? Would be interesting compared to Mundorf? As I understand they are much more costly than Sonicaps? Now you and Undertow are very smitten with these caps.
I of course cannot comment as of course I have never heard them. I will have to wait for a Tony Gee or Tempo review as I have blown my load!
I have put one of the Russian .22uf PIO with the vintage as a bypass cap and can say so far I do NOT like that combo. |
Face,
Your not imagining, I used the MR's in a more critical location than you and its a much quieter and smooth background than any of the other caps... Yep the size is ridiculous on these so applications will be limited for most as they just won't fit, however still the best value for the money and materials available right now in caps that I can see or hear. |
Last night I replaced the Sonic Cap Gen I's in the high pass with Claritycap MR's.
My first initial impression was, they're tremendous! The .89uf MR is larger than the 17uf Sonic Cap used in my low pass. The 4.7uf MR is just tremendous. If I didn't build a point to point x-over on a piece of MDF, there would be no way I would be able to use these.
First listening impression, right off the bat they seem smoother, less closed in, pianos especially sounds more realistic, and there is slightly better separation. And I don't know if I am imaging things, but there seems to be less floor noise. Now does someone want to give me a loan so I can purchase some for my low pass? :D
I can't wait to get some hours on these! |
I am looking at that very idea of speaker cable. I am using 12 guage Linn speaker wire. 25 ft x 2. (which I need nowhere near as much) I am curious as to how much difference plastic free speaker wire will make? Easier to replace worn out caps than almost new speaker wire. (in the mind anyway)
Looking at homemade speaker wire not sure why Duelund costs so much? I just can't make my own caps.
Very pricey wire though! |
Well why not just finish your duelund investment off right?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1225763765&/Duelund-Speaker-Cable-10%-off- |
The CAST caps are not here yet but will be interesting.
JohnK had done extensive work on vintage Klipsch speakers. He had tried working on the cabinets to dampen them down. I feel the resonance is caused by the foil cap and maybe not the cabinet. At least I hope it is as I know the caps resonate.
Tony Gee talked about how the Duelund's made everything sound more real. That would not be the exact words I would use. I find the Duelund sounds similiar to the vintage with a MASSIVE reduction in resonance. My words would be (after living with foil caps for 25+ years) is that plastic caps are much less real and plasticize the sound. Where the Duelund's shine is they are wayyyyy out of the league of vintage in noise reduction.
Tony and Tempo talk about things sounding more real (with Duelund) I believe real is what was there (always in foil caps) and the plastic caps changed everything to plastic sounding and we have become used to that.
The weakness of the vintage Klipsch is the resonance and I think it is in the vintage cap not the box. The only thing I can go on this is the HUGE reduction in resonance that came from the Duelund in the tweeter.
I have not been as excited about an Audio product in a long time as I am about these CAST caps coming. Very high hopes. I am glad they were designed for horns. |
Did some more testing and I do not mean to upset anyone here who owns either Bennic, Sonicap, or Mundorf but all plastic caps I have heard degrade the sound in a big way and it is NOT hard to tell. In the horns you hear everything. (good or bad) I am being critical of even my own gear wondering what the heck was I thinking!
Biggest surprises
Duelund in the tweeter, how good the vintage STILL is in the midrange, Russian PIO as bypass can help and these may be very good caps maybe better than vintage if they were big enough.
Biggest disapointments
Linn and B&W and many big name speaker companies use just cheap caps. I guess that is why I have had a foil cap speaker for 30 years. Unacceptable at the prices they charge! Mundorf SIO and all plastic caps. I guess good if you want to make your system sound more like plastic.
I got one plastic cap to get rid of in the amp with I hope Russian PIO and then all done.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (not SIO I do not see them as even better than Supreme)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
6. Bennic (in the Linn)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here to compare)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot!)
2. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO bypass caps)
3. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
4. Supreme 10uf with SIO and Russian PIO (again do not care for SIO at all)
5. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough)
6. Bennic (in the Linn speakers awful) |
K40Y9 that you have are .22uf/1000V; FT-3 is .1uf/600V; FT-1 is .01uf/200V. Other values and voltage ratings are available on Ebay. All are OK for electronics within their voltage range. The russian seller claims to have tested FT-1 .01uf/200V out to 1000V.
If you don't want to wait for break-in of FT-3, put them all in parallel and wire the parallel pack in series with an AC load such as 75W or 100W lightbulb. Give them several weeks like that.
To hear K40 at its best, clip off the steel leads and replace with audiophile wire soldered to the stubs left protruding from the glass ends. BTW these mil spec PIO are hermetically sealed and should never leak. |
Thanks Dave
What is the voltage of the PIO? Can they be used in electronics to replace vintage caps?
You are right on the Teflons being not that good right out of the box. I have heard some crazy hours like 400 for Teflons? That is almost a month at 24/7! Wow!
You would want to know they are good at the end of that. |
K40Y9 PIO sounds pretty good right out of the box and should improve within 10-20 hours. FT-3 teflon takes much longer to break-in and can be irritating until it does. I've had good luck paralleling K40 & FT-3; this seems to improve bass definition and treble clarity, as compared to K40Y9 PIO by itself. When mixing different types and values you should listen carefully for smearing of detail.
It would be interesting to have your views of these byapss caps tested separately on the tweeter and woofer sections. |
I have become intrigued with the Russian PIO. I took back out the Teflon just leaving in the Russian PIO.
I need to put some hours on these but first impression is good. They reduce the nasty plastic sound of the Mundorf Supreme.
For the first time since the Mundorf's went in I do not feel the need to burn in while not in the room or the desire to pull them out. |
I have the Russian Teflon and the Russian K40y-9 PIO. I really liked what the PIO did when they first went in. I thought they were teflon's (Russian caps you can't what they are) but they seemed to smooth things out. With the Teflon it does not sound as good.
In another cap review I hear they are considered one of the best Russian caps. Ahhh another guy who thinks all plastic caps sound like plastic! I was shocked to find a small by pass reduces the plastic sound of poly caps.
quote from someone else on these caps.
"I must thank Bob B and Les Lemmars for kindly loaning me these K40y caps. After the usual rocky burn-in ritual, this PIO cap settled into a confident, natural sounding device. There are some audiophiles who rank these PIO caps as the best of the Russian military caps, including the FT-3 and K72 teflon caps. I may agree with this sentiment when it comes to utter naturalness and ease of presentation as well as the lack of a subtle plastic sound, which of course all plastic (film) caps have". |
I put what I thought was the Teflon at only .44 of 12.7uf total value and thought the sound was smoothed out somewhat.
I find out those were the Paper in Oil ones. I was surprised to be honest of any change with such a small bypass. But the change was real.
It would have been interesting to try a pile of the Russian Paper in Oil.
I have the Teflons in now. |
Retesting the vintage and Mundorf's. The gap is closing with the Mundorf's as they break in. (compared to vintage)
On the plus side Mundorf brings out more bass.
They still sound rougher than the vintage and always sound fake but they are quieter. They have a "stereo" sound to them vintage foil has a "real" sound.
I will put in Teflon for bypass. |
The Teflon caps are here.
I am going to listen to some vintage mid caps put the Mundorf's back in and then leave the Mundorf's and bypass with Russian Teflon.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (maybe Silver in Oil after time the tilt to the high end calms down)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot)
2. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
3. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough
I have no idea what to expect of Teflon as a bypass. |
I have put back in the vintage foil caps in the midrange.
The sound is much smoother voices more real. Instruments do not have that jagged edge of poly caps. All poly caps I have tried are the biggest downgrade you can make to the sound.
I have put the order through.
I went with Duelund CAST midrange and 2 Duelund CAST tweeter caps.
I could not pull the trigger on the inductors. Although I am sure they are an excellent product I just do not know how much better they would be then current vintage inductors or Alpha or Mundorf Inductors. I know the Poly affects the sound but I do not know how much on the inductor it does. I think Poly is a skin effect thing and that is high freq. At Alpha or Mundorf prices I can try and see if they are better than vintage at Duelund prices you just have to know what the effects are going to be. |
