I am curious if folks have heard a diode or bridge rectifier that they feel made a real improvement. In your experience do they impact the sound as much as capacitors or even enough to mess with?
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
Showing 50 responses by grannyring
Justubes2 That is my exact finding with the Jupiter caps which are now my go to also. Perfectly balanced. I like the CAST, but have found time and again they are tilted upward in the upper mids. I think some love this sound and thus rank it higher. I find the Jupiter more neutral with a tad more fine detail and air. |
I have not tried the SIO in paralell with Duelund. I typically like using just one Jupiter copper cap in the signal path. Another cap I like to "mix" in is the Jensen copper foil in paper tube cap. These are very warm and inviting and on their own may be a little to dark. If used elsewhere in an amp with the Jupiter cap the sound is very natural and inviting and not the least bright or fatiguing. |
Please remember what Tony Gee says about Jupiter caps matters not at all for electronics for one reason. He only used them in speakers! My experience and comments are in electronics. Caps do not necessarily sound the same in both applications. The Jupiters are just more musical in electronics. I hate brightness and glare. I long for smooth, natural tone. The CAST caps are tilted up in the upper mids and in the end fatigue me in electronics. This is not the case in speakers based on my experience. These caps do not always sound the same in both applications....very important point. In speakers, I choose the flat, pancake style CAST. They sound great and better than the cylindrical CAST caps for electronics based on my experience. I find the Jupiter caps as dynamic as CAST in electronics....at least in my systems and applications. Some of this comes down to personal preferences, but I do want to warn readers that Tony Gee's comments are based on speaker usage only! An ASC oil cap may sound fine in a power supply, but lousy in a speaker. A Solen Fast Cap may sound good in a power supply, but not so good as a coupling cap or speaker crossover cap. |
Volley, Rob and others here. The same Japanese designer that turned us all onto the WE and Belden 8402 wire also turned us onto the new Arizona Capacitor Green Cactus capacitors. They are vintage reproductions according to Jeff Day's blog. Mineral oil and hermetically sealed capacitors. I purchased two .47uf values for my dac to be used in the output position. They replaced Jupiter copper foil caps. They cost me $25 each. I placed them in my dac along with WE wire on the inputs and outputs. This is not my Yamamoto dac, but another DIY build that is very, very good. These caps are cut from the same sonic cloth as the WE wire. The WE wire and these caps sound very different from the high end caps/wire we all love. Different how? Hard to explain really, but they are supremely musical. Perhaps the Jupiters have more air and top end sparkle, but these Green Cactus caps are holographic sounding and so real sounding. They just seem to sound like the real thing and not so much concerned about aphile nick pics if you will. |
Yes indeed based on how the cap is built. There is an inside and outside foil and many brands mark the caps so you are aware. From the Aiken amplifier site; The proper way to connect the outside foil is to the low impedance side of the circuit, which, in the case of coupling caps, will normally be the plate of the previous stage. If it is a bypass cap to ground, connect the outside foil to the grounded side. If it is a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect the outside foil to B+. The outside foil will act as a shield against electric field coupling into the capacitor, so you want it to have the lowest impedance return path to ground. For AC signals, the power supply rail is effectively at ground potential, just as the ground rail is. This is why it makes a good point to use as a shield ground. This concept is sometimes difficult to understand, but if you think about how a capacitor works, it will become clear. A capacitor has a capacitive reactance that calculated as follows: Xc = 1/(2*Pi*f*C) where: Xc is the capacitive reactance f = the frequency of the signal being passed through the capacitor C = the capacitance of the capacitor. As you can see from the above equation, the frequency term is in the denominator, so as the frequency increases, the capacitive reactance decreases. Since reactance is effectively a measure of the "AC resistance" of the capacitor, the capacitor will exhibit a very low resistance at higher frequencies, while looking like an open circuit for DC and frequencies low enough to make the capacitive reactance significant. This means that the large electrolytic bypass capacitors in the power supply are effectively "short circuits" to AC signals above a certain very low frequency. For all practical shielding purposes, connecting the outer foil to the power supply rail is just as good as connecting it to ground. As a side note, electrolytic capacitors have an internal resistance that tends to rise with frequency, which can make the capacitor less than ideal as a bypass at higher frequencies. For this reason, it is sometimes a good idea to bypass electrolytic capacitors with a smaller value foil or other type capacitor. I have seen where a well-known guitar amplifier "guru" said to connect the banded end to the grid of the next stage because it is at ground potential. This is completely wrong, because the grid circuit is a very high impedance point in the circuit. The grid of the tube itself is very high impedance, and it is usually shunted by a high resistance of 220K to 1Meg, and also usually has a large series resistance as an interstage attenuator as well. Because of this, it would make a very poor choice for electrostatic shielding. The plate, on the other hand, has an impedance equal to the internal plate resistance of the tube in parallel with the plate resistor (assuming the cathode is bypassed), which for a typical 12AX7 is around 38K total. If the cathode resistor is unbypassed, the output impedance is a bit higher, around 68K or so, depending on the value of the cathode resistor, but still well below the input impedance of the next stage. Tubes with lower internal plate resistances, such as the 12AT7, will have even lower output impedances. |
Some of us also also prefer the 14 and 10 gauge WE options for more of that midrange body and fullness. I also found a dual run of the 16 gauge better sounding than a single run. They all sound a tad different and all these options are first rate. It does really depend on your rig and personal tastes. The best find I have ever encountered in audio for sure in terms of bang for the buck! |
Also, Clarity TC film caps are wonderful in tube amp power supplies replacing electrolytic types. I have found you can use values of 1/3 the capacitance of the electrolytic caps they replace. More open sounding and extended compared to electros I have used in the past. Also better than the GE motor runs I have used in the past. More air, openness, and improved focus and overall refinement. This is based on some recent mods on tube preamps and PP tube amps. |
Just an update for everybody. I purchased some Arizona capacitor blue cactus capacitors for use in a coupling position in my tube amps. I really like their tone and smoothness, this is just a very musical sounding capacitor. They cost me about $30 each, while not cheap they certainly are a great value in terms of overall performance. |
I also use the Duelund wire in my tube amp mod with the Blue Cactus caps and resistors Jeff Day likes per his site. Very nice! However the best mod to take is bypassing the speaker binding posts on my amp. Best sonic improvement I have heard to date with my latest amp project. Just think no more thick metal binding post or even thick metal connectors on the speaker cable. I inserted some Teflon bolts and nuts where the binding posts were and use them as a clamp to clamp together the bare speaker wire with output wires from the trannys that now exit the back of the amp. This was a very noticeable improvement! |
Great parts Volleyguy1. You should be thrilled with the results. I am confident of that. @salectric I ended up using a mix of Duelund and Mills resistors. I finished the highs/mids board in my Crescendo speakers and have about 150 hours on them. The improvement is just wonderful. It was very, very hard fitting all the parts on a board that would fit in the speaker. The 12uf Jupiter cap is 6 inches long with a circumference of 8 inches! It replaced a 1.5 inch metalized film cap as just one example. My wife did not want any other electronics boxes in the room so outboard crossovers were not an option😢 The improvement is dramatic. Here are pics of the board. The bass board is my next project. http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/slideshow/ |
Completely system dependent. I heard the very same thing you did with the Duelund wire. I then had two things happen. 1) more burn in 2) I upgraded my USB cable and now the Duelund is just perfect! It was too alive before and now it is spot on! So interesting. I used it for speaker wire to the amp. Changing my USB cable did change the sound of my system for the better and set the stage for the Duelund wire to sound magnificent. I was not going to use before this slight system chance. Wire is soooo system dependent. |
The difference is the higher rated voltage cap has more material inside and they will be bigger for sure, More material is needed for handling the increased voltage. Speaker uf values are larger and meaning 600uf versions of 12uf caps would result in caps that are giant sized. They still can be at 100v 😊 They can and and often do sound different. A 300v and 600v version of the same cap can indeed sound slightly different. They use the same materials inside, but more material can have a slight impact on the sound. Over on the Humble Capacitor review site they often pick up slight sonic differences in caps that have both lower and higher voltage ratings. It depends on the cap. Higher uf values are usually not even offered in the higher 600v option however. |
No, I definitely like the copper foil better, but could not afford them in my last project. The aluminum (VT) caps are great sounding and much more affordable. The copper foil is more extended in the highs, more resolving, and improved micro details. The aluminum foil is open, warm, beautiful, and big sounding. Nice resolution, but not as refined and resolving as copper. In terms of size, I bet they would be the same, just substituting copper foil. You could ask Chris at Jupiter as he is a great guy to talk to. |
Wow! It seems my VT cap is larger? Well it is in the speaker now. I remember Chris had made this 12 uf special/different in some way as part of an initial run I believe. If you are at all interested in Jupiter I highly recommend talking to Chris. Just call the number on his site. We have spoken many times. Great guy who is very understated and humble. |
Agreed PBN kits look very interesting. Erik, what are your thoughts on the new Tekton Double Impact speaker design? Well respected posters here and reviewers are in agreement that they are as good as it gets. We have read this sort of thing many times on many pieces, but this speaker seems to be a possible outlier and perhaps a true deal of the century? I have not heard them, but admit they have me curious. I do have my doubts they are all that.... |
You may want to just try Path Audio? They are wonderful. I used the nude Vishay in tube preamps and a dac. They can be ruthlessly revealing and in a speaker may be too much of a good thing. Overall musicality may be harmed on less than stellar recordings. They are ruthless and can sound bright in many systems. Just something to chew on. |
Don’t know as I have not heard them. I just keep reading how resolving they are and that is good, but can be.....fatiguing. Those tweeters sell for $57 each at Madisound and he has 14 of them! Just tweeters. He sells the speakers for $3000 shipped, No way he paid even half that. My goodness. Never heard the tweeter. Owners say they are very easy to listen to however. I did not know Path Audio had spec issues? First I heard. Great sound in a two way speaker mod on a Raal tweeter. Fantastic really. |
@slowikpl What did you mean by "worst case" on the Duelunds? Do you mean they don’t have a tight tolerance? @salectric I have found how a resistor, cap, or wire performs in a given is completely system dependent. Completely. I tried the new Duelund 16 ga as speaker cable and did not like in my system after 120 hours of break in. I change my USB cable to Curious and power cords to Furutech and I now love the Duelund 16 ga on my speakers highs and mids. I just love it. Success or failure of a given part is hit or miss based on my experience. I loved the Path Audio resistors on a Raal tweeter as part of a two way design. So easy to listen to and open. Nicely resolving with a comfortable ease that the Raal tweeter liked. I liked 😊 Many new parts have come out that are very exciting like Duelund stranded/tinned wire, Arizona Blue and Green Cactus caps, Duelund tinned copper caps, Lefson resistors, Clarity range of caps.....etc..... |