Pete, if you have used Jupiter copper foil caps I will buy them from you. I find the Vcaps to cold, sterile and electronic sounding for my tastes.
No meat on the bones! |
I have to report on the new Jupiter copper foil caps for speaker crossovers. These are the 100v larger value caps. I purchased two 3.3uf and two 1 uf caps to parallel on my Raal tweeters. They cost me some $594 for all of them. Not cheap, but wait till you read my review here.
I know I am an emotional or passionate type of audio enthusiast. I share with all here when I like something. I have had past moments when an upgrade really floored me and took my music to another level. Those moments were exciting and fun. Yesterday stands alone as the singularly most arresting moment I have had in audio as it relates to the hardware influencing the music. Words are hard to pick and I am not that inclined to strain for the right Aphile word right now.
Perhaps it is the synergy with my system, perhaps the good Lord has miraculously granted me bionic ears during the prior evening's sleep, but these new crossover caps from Jupiter transformed an already stellar system. I could not even imagine reproduced music sounding like this. Luscious waves of never ending beautiful tones enveloping every square inch of space around me. Music with such beauty, texture and naturally resolved tone that my jaw was indeed resting on the floor.
The only other audio moment in my life matching this event was the first time I heard a real fine stereo system in 1976. I listened to Aerosmith on my best friend's older brother's system and at that moment I caught the Aphile virus. Yesterday was every bit as revelatory.
Chris at Jupiter is very soft spoken and modest. He calmly told me before I soldered them in that they are like nothing else I have ever heard. He was right and now I share this reality with the rest of you. |
Charles you made the right choice. However much sonic improvement can be squeezed from that part position in your circuit will indeed be realized. |
Forgot to mention the burn in process on the new Jupiter copper foil crossover caps. My observations were based on about 6-7 hours of burn in. Yes, only 7 hours for this reaction and I expect further refinement over the next 100-200 hours.
The first couple of hours sounded good for sure. You immediately hear glimpses of the greatness to come. They sound ready to bust-out, but are a little closed in and seem to be holding back if you will.
|
Charles the caps are marked with a line on one side of the label. This is the outer foil side. Just be sure and tell your tech guy. |
Marqmike
I am 1,000,000 percent sure the Jupiter caps will make you smile big! A no brainer. Just replace the same value caps. You need to first know what is inside and how they are mounted..
No downsides and only big smile improvements.
Glad to help you. |
Ha, no, no Charles. I said I am one million percent sure he will like the whatever percentage improvement!
Ya, Jupiter should hire me to sell their line and be comfortable that I will never over promise and under deliver :) |
Tasouli
Take a look at my system page....many changes. My new speaker is Lahave and I upgraded the crossover and placed it externally.
I purchased them from Chris at Jupiter directly. He has a few now, but not enough to add them to his website just yet. No retailer has them just yet....but very soon. |
Agreed Charles. Resistors are relatively cheap $5-$15 and folks overlook them. They play a significant role for sure in musicality and resolution. It is certainly much easier and doable if you can perform these mods yourself and listen...change etc...If not, it can be a big hassle and expensive. |
Update on the Jupiter caps in my crossover. They have opened up nicely and I could not be more pleased. Very happy with my purchase.
They seem to open up and improve in a short 50 hours or so. I am at around 100 hours now and am told by the builder they will improve up to 200 hours. I am ecstatic with the music at 100 hours! |
Strange. They are better than Duelund to many ears in electronics. That was certainly the case in my system. It could be your amp, position in circuit, your total system mix etc.... Who knows, but nothing is ever 100% for everyone.
If you don't have at least 50-100 hours, then wait. If you do, then in your system another cap may indeed be better for you.
I am a tone freak and love inner detail. Jupiter does that in spades. Dynamics? I guess I never noticed a real difference in this regard. |
Has anyone compared Path brand resistors to Duelund CAST in crossovers? I need two 1 ohm resistors on my tweeter and want the most natural sounding of the two. The one with no hint of brightness, hardness, or glare. Yes....needs to be resolving.
I have always used Mills MRA in past mods, but want to try one of these two. |
Exactly....take a little edge off/sweeten as my ears have a sensitivity to highs. I have a little tinnitus. |
Oh boy...I would love to see and hear those AIT amps! I dream about them:) Most amazing DIY amp ever built in my book. |
No, I live in the Midwest. |
Thanks for the comments Norm. |
Go figure. I replaced the Jenson paper caps in a set of Monoblock amps and a tubed DAC. They were nice caps, but not as dynamic, airy, and resolving as the Duelund or Jupiter copper foil. I found them a tad muffled and overly warm. The bass was a tad loose. Great cap overall, but not in the league of Duelund or Jupiter in my limited experience.
Funny results you have had. I never put them in a phono section however.
I least you found what works best in your rig! That is most important. |
Volleyguy1,
I no longer have any Duelund caps to compare as I sold them all. I don't recall dynamics changing much from one to the other? I would need to listen just for that one SQ attribute to comment on in the future.
My system is very dynamic as my preamp and amps are SOTA when it comes to this attribute. It may be their design makes the differences in the caps not very noticeable in term of dynamics only.
I have certainly found Duelund caps to be dynamic. |
I placed the new Pathaudio resistors in my crossover today. They are huge and built like no other resistor I have ever seen. I will post pictures on my virtual system page ASAP.
The seem to be smoother than the Mills MRA they replaced. They need to break in, but my initial feeling is these are very smooth and easy to listen to while being very pure and transparent. |
Yes the resistors do have a somewhat constipated character right now. They are smooth, but certainly constipated and as you say a tad recessed.
I will report back after another 50 or so hours. |
Reporting back on the Path Audio resistors after full burn in. They are simply beautiful sounding and pull of the balancing act of being very resolving and smooth and the same time. These are a must try for crossovers folks. They are the Duelund/Jupiter caps of the resistor world based on my recent experience. |
Has anyone ever compared the well reviewed ASC 386 power supply caps to the newer Clarity TC line of film power supply caps? The problem with the ASC caps is they are not offered in values over 50-60uf. The Clarity TC caps have values up to 600 uf or so! I want these higher values. These higher uf values also support voltages as high as 600-700 vdc. You can special order TC caps with vdc ratings as high as 1800!
Clarity claims you can replace electrolytic caps with uf values up to 10x higher with their lower uf values and not sacrifice any real capacitance performance attributes. For example a TC cap with a 600uf value compares to an electrolytic cap with up to 3000 uf of capacitance.
I have read reviews saying they sound far better than electrolytics and Solen film caps.
Love to hear any user experiences with the TC line. |
I just put a second set of those Path Audio resistors in my crossovers and my are they good. |
Very interesting. Why would an active be any better in general. I use all top line copper parts from Jupiter, Duelund, Path Audio etc..... Why would an active sound better? I like that it can be adjusted and fine tuned, but the sound? |
Interesting. I have found large parts point to point wired with large gauge solid core wire to sound better than any circuit board loaded with surface mounted resistors and those tiny electrolytic caps etc...
This subject is most interesting and I would have to compare in the end and decide which is indeed better. I don't buy into the thought that tiny parts are inherently better sounding. That has not been my experience, but it can certainly be true of a particular design. No absolutes.
I have a two way speaker with a very simple crossover design and perhaps I can compare in the future. |
Ricevs, I have to thank you for mentioning the upgrade of bypassing all binding posts for better sound on your website. We all agree that better parts equal better sound in crossovers and spend big money on the right parts. Funny thing is we live with our signal being degraded by the binding posts. No matter how good the posts are they degrade the signal.
I now use the binding posts on my amp to simply clamp the speaker wire and output signal wire of the amp together. I actually soldered the output of my crossover directly to my speaker cable using no binding posts or spades. You don't have to go this far, but you can certainly just use your speaker binding posts as clamps removing them from the signal path.
Folks this is a significant upgrade that is free! Just takes some DIY effort and execution. |
Sstalwar, you can spend more for the Duelund, but they will not sound as good or certainly not sound any better than the Jupiter copper foil cap. I have used both in numerous electronics, tube amps etc... This has been my experience.
I find the Jupiters to be a bit more lively, better in micro details, and not as tipped up sounding in the upper mids. This has been my experience with both these caps in tube amps.
It is reasonable to suggest that these caps will perform the same way in your tube amp. Both are very good caps indeed and you can't go wrong with either, but the CAST caps are lots more money. |
Sstalwar
If you are looking for warmth and that is your #1 need, then don't purchased the Duelund,Jupiter, or Vcap. They will not give you added warmth. In electronics the Jupiters would be the best choice of the three for your needs as the non-pancake style CAST is simply too tipped in the upper mids for added warmth. Again, this is in tube electronics with the non-pancake style CAST cap. But even the Jupiter, which is very smooth, will not give you "warmth".
The best choice is the Jupiter HT aluminum in wax which is one step down in price from the copper. I like the flat stacked, but the round is very similiar. It is a warm and very musical cap. Based on your needs I highly reccommend this cap. I have used it and quickly came to enjoy the warm presentation and full bodied personality of this cap. It is a big step over a Solen Fast Cap. Is it as detailed and lively as the Vcap, CAST, or copper Jupiter? NO. Does it have more of a warm, inviting and full bodied character, well yes indeed.
It is by no means thick and dark. It is more resolving than your common Solen etc...and the perfect choice based on your sonic desires.
Merry Christmas to all! |
Volley, I assume you let the Jupiters break in for some 200 hours? They do sound more laid back at first, but open up nicely over time. They are more open sounding with more air than the CAST in my system. Last thing I would ever say is I need to turn up the treble with them. I can't even get my mind around that reaction? My system is very resolved however.
I can understand the difference in perceived dynamics between the two caps.
My comments are based on use in tube electronics, DAC's and speakers where I have compared both. I am referring to the non-pancake style CAST caps in my comments also. |
It may be that in an initially "warmer" or more forgiving system the CAST work nicely to deliver the end sound. In an already highly resolved set up the Jupiter caps work nicely. Just my attempt to understand our separate observations Volley. |
Ya, the price of those silver caps would be about as much as the speakers themselves:) |
I see, then I would upgrade the caps to Jupiter copper foil and wax and the resistors to Path Audio. This would be a very significant improvement. Go whole hog and place the crossover in a separate box outside the speaker!
You could also upgrade the internal hook up wire. |
I also found the Vcaps to be very, very fast and detailed. I can see how folks like them. In my set up they did not have enough body and weight. But my system already leaned towards fast and detailed.
The CAST are world class caps as I have been one of their chief advocates on this site. Still think they are top three. No issue with Jupiter dynamics in my rig which excelled in dynamics before and after the Jupiter caps. It does come down to personal tastes and system synergy with these top three caps. All of them sound fantastic to be sure. I have had the opportunity to actually compare the Duelund and Jupiter in several pieces from speakers to tube amps I feel like I have a solid understanding of each. I have spent a good deal of time and money listening to both.....less with Vcaps that I tried once in a DAC.
The most dynamic cap I have heard in a power supply are the big can computer grade electrolytics! To Volleys point they are huge! 3 inches wide by almost 6 inches tall. Very dynamic. I am spending more time of late comparing caps and chokes in the power supply. Thus far my favorite caps are the GE 97f oilers. Thanks Salectric for the tip! The only issue for me is they don't come in values above 60 -100uf. I like to build with more capacitance and will try the Clarity TC film caps some day. They have values of several hundred microfarads and even higher. They are costly however. |
Ok folks before you read what I am about to post and think I have gone absolutely nuts, keep an open mind. Oh, and don't tell my wife as she will think I have lost my mind.
I finally placed my outboard crossover in a nice chassis. I was doing some research on how to best damp the box. We all know that the nicely damped CAST and Jupiter caps sound great and reduce noise greatly! Well I found several threads on folks using Reptisand ( reptile sand make of Quartz). Well, I decided to try it. I filled each crossover box with 30 pounds of Reptisand covering everything bottom to top. Be sure to only use the Reptisand brand made of Quartz as it has the best dialetric properties and the sand is so fine that it will not be abrasive to the components.
I did place the component board on a multilayer cork plateform making sure no park of the plateform touched the chassis on the sides. I did this as over time the board may want to sink down into the sand before hitting the bottom. However my crossover board is slotted and on small cork stilts so there is a 1 inch layer of sand between the most of the cork plateform and the crossover board.
Talk about reducing noise and music emerging from a dead quiet background! Any and all traces of glare, noise you thought you never had, is gone. More natural and organic sound. I am very please and this strange mod is a keeper.
Yes, it can be reversed by simply using a shop vac and removing the sand. But you won't do it. Ha!
Ok, I am a little nuts, but this was fun and I was very curious. |
After more listening the sound is only better and better with this crossover damping mod. I find I have to turn up to the music a click or two more than usual for the same perceived loudness. I know it is the noise that is now gone and was once adding to the perceived volume. When I say noise I mean whatever ringing, RFI, and other noises once getting into and going through the crossover.
The music has more natural tone, improved body, weight and bass impact. The most impressive change is the greater sense of ease and nuance. As I turn the volume up the music is just so easy to fall into. |
Junker, I think you will be very pleased with the results. Let us know your initial reaction as well as your impressions after burn in. |
Your speakers are stunning and you are a very talented wood worker/craftsmen. They are the finest DIY speaker cabs I have ever set my eyes on. Congratulations!
I assume your values are correct, but must say I question 94uf of capacitance on the mids. Again, I will assume your right and make a suggestion.
I would not mix all the different brand of caps on each driver. All the different sonic flavors of each cap combined with the different materials in each cap could result in a bad or wrong sounding speaker. Some combinations work, while others will spoil the broth and sound horrendous.
Stick with one brand and model of cap on each driver.....do not mix unless the other brand is used as a small value bypass cap (under .47 uf or so).
Also, if breaking up the 94 uf cap is a must, then try to do so with caps of equal value or as close as you can get. For example nine 10uf caps and one 4uf. Six 15 uf caps etc........
Experienced builders suggest this is always best for sound quality.
I cannot stress enough to not mix 3 or 4 different brands of caps on your individual drivers. You cannot know the end result and will be playing sound quality Russian roulette.
Your speaker cabinate to simply to special to be ruined by this move. Your drivers are also very high quality. Again, very well done and I am impressed with your talent! |
NYaudio98
Your speaker also comes in a signature version with a better Tweeter. If it fits in the very same cutout, then use that tweeter. Check with the builder.
From there you can upgrade the resistors and caps with the very same values. Your builder puts Dynamicaps in as an upgrade in the Signature model. They are good, but you can do better.
Please tell us what sound quality improvements you are after.
The biggest single improvement I have heard with all the mods and upgrades I have done to crossovers is this....
Take the crossover out of that vibrating and energy bombarding enclosure. Then dampen the heck out of your outboard crossover. This yields the single biggest improvement, but it takes more DIY skill. Not possible for all. Some don't want to do this mod as it also changes the original design substantially possibly hurting resale. This is a labor of love for one really into this sort of thing. |
I posted this once, but you AGON DIY guys must try this if you have not done it as yet. The single most important sound quality upgrade I have heard is removing the crossover parts from the bombastic vibrating speaking box and making it outboard. This is so darn important and really makes your expensive passive component upgrades shine.
Don't stop here. Once the crossover is outboard, dampen it. I floated the crossover board in the middle of 30 pounds of Reptisand. I was absolutely shocked at the improvement. Stunning folks. Talk about removing noise and greatly improving focus and imaging. Oh my. Yeah, I know many won't do this for obvious reasons, but the sonic results are fantastic.
I started by just filling the box under the crossover board and listened. A definite improvement. I then buried the whole thing, totally buried, and the result was even better.
Some have done this with sand and that is fine for damping. However the Reptisand made with Quartz is a much better dialetric. Make sure it is Quartz as Reptisand comes in different forms and you want Quartz.
I vacuumed out all the sand and listened again. I could not wait to put the Reptisand back in as it is so much better sounding. What it does to remove noise is shocking. I had no idea I even had this "noise".
Bass is tighter and more articulate. The background or space between the Instruments and voice is black as black gets. The music is more natural sounding with more heft and body. Any vestige of glare has been removed.
The music is more effortless and the tone is so intoxicating.
The sand is very, very fine and smooth so it will not harm your components. I was able to vacuum it out easily. I sealed my box well and have no plans to vacuum it out again :)
I am not the first to try this Reptisand as I learned of it from others. |
Marqmike, I agree 100% that more builders should do this. The reality is it does cost more, takes up more room, some won't like the added boxes and aesthetics etc...
Some builders already put $10 caps and $3 resistors in $10,000-$20,000 speakers. Building and properly damping an outboard chassis is most likely way to costly.
If you are willing and capable DIY can bring you substantial sound quality improvements for a relatively modest investment. |
Here is a link to buy it.....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017UB3PI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00076HTU6&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=06A2AVMSP8QW30CNYRKN
Completely covering the board was the big pay off! |
Nice of the builder to share all that with you! Very nice. I would start by replacing the resistors only. Buy some Path Audio as they are better sounding than the mighty Duelund. Let those settle in an enjoy the improvement. They made a big difference.
Do you have Dynamicaps? Solen? If so, I suggest looking at the Jupiter Flat stacked VT or HT line. The are expensive, but great sounding.
I would wait on that and start with the resistors. The jupiter caps are large and may not fit on the board so you may need to "MacGyver" them in! Love that phrase.
Clarity are good caps also, but please tell me the kind of sound you like. The Jupiter flat stacked are rich, organic and full bodied with good transparency also. The Clarity caps will perhaps be more detailed. |
Ok you Agon modifiers.....I have a comment and question. I just finished modifying my preamp so the filament heaters are powered by battery. Yeah, 6 volt rechargeable gel cell battery. I simply charge it with a separate filament tranny and turn off the power to the filament filter when the battery is fully charged.
More quiet background and I like the result very much. A nice lift in SQ for sure.
Have you folks done this?
Mine is set up to run 100% battery and if and when the battery drains I can simply turn on the filament filter power supply. |
He will not based on my past correspondence with him. He does not want you to mess with the amp period. He went so far as to tell me I was wasting my time and these boutique parts would not make a positive difference. This was a couple of years ago however and he may have come around to the truth by now.
He should not pass out a schematic and I don't blame him. My comments are on his openness to help a DIY or mod improvement.
Might as well try as he may have mellowed on this as time has passed and other owners in good standing with him have done mods with great results. |
Interesting comments on the Duelund requiring you to set the treble tone control to -2. That corresponds to my findings exactly. I found them slightly tipped in the upper mids/low highs and I don't have tone controls. Over time this very slight emphasis was not as musical to my ears, in my system, as the Jupiter caps.
I do suffer tinnitus and I require my highs and upper mids to be smooth and not even the slightest bit emphasized. The dead quiet and ruler flat response of the Jupiter caps really have me smiling.
The noise they remove also helps my tinnitus.
I also find the Jupiter caps soar higher in the highs with more air. Important not to confuse this with a slight emphasis in the highs as they are not the same.
I found this difference in electronics and cannot speak as expertly on speaker use.
I try to post these details so readers get a sense of the flavor differences as one one cap is not better than the other in all conditions and for all needs.
I can say this. Jupiter copper foil caps burried in Reptisand filled crossover boxes are astoundingly quiet and absent of noise. Shockingly so. |
Well, I have sold modded speakers for a higher price then I paid on two occasions. It depends on several factors. Your overall feedback, quality of the work done, and finding the right buyer who is educated on this sort of thing. Usually this person is a DIY kind of buyer to be honest, but not always. |
I understand Charles. Rob, the coupling caps in your amp will make a very nice improvement with Vcap, Jupiter, or Duelund. I am just not 100% sure on the Arizona caps to be honest. |
CAST are great caps, but in my system I found them too tipped up in the upper mids and lacking in deep bass compared to the Jupiter copper foil caps. I found the Jupiter caps evenly balanced from top to bottom with no exaggerated upper mids.
I would still use them in the right system to arrive at a net sound I desire. |
Open up the bottom and just look. The values are printed right on the cap.
I assume it's circuit uses coupling caps and those values are most always under 1 uf. |
The Six Moons review has a good shot of the amp. You are replacing those green Solen caps next to the tube sockets. Two of them. I could not read the values, but you will be able to easily. |
