Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil


I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy

Showing 50 responses by grannyring

A quick search shows that most, including Parts Connextion, lists them as PIO caps. However, Jimmy's Junkyard capacitor thread lists them as Mylar.
The internal structure is most likely Mylar and certainly not organic as an FYI.
Jwm, based on what is in the Duelund cap I would say they are more like the Audio Note Mylar, copper foil caps in materials only. Duelund uses a special process to build that others don't however.
Charles, I have seen the cap cut in half and well as the builder of Lampizator and Lukasz recent comments mirror what I have posted here.
I went to,the Duelund website and here is what they says about the CAST caps:
The Duelund CAST Capacitor is our no holds barred flagship capacitor.

The construction builds on the foundation of our Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure.

Interesting as I see no mention of the plastic substance that was everywhere and most prominent? I saw no paper except the outer wrap?

This was a .22 uf CAST cap. Do they make different grades and types of CAST based on value and retailer? I doubt it.....This is quite confusing for sure.
The CAST cap I saw cut in half was not used or purchased by Lampizator as an FYI, it was purchased directly from Duelund last year.
The CAST .22uf I saw cut in half had no paper at all and again purchased from Duelund direct last year. Appreciate you coming to this thread and engaging us Frederik.

I have purchase quite a few of you caps ... All CAST ..... And am a little confused to be honest.
Not sure about innuendo as my comments are based on actual viewing and not words. Seems my comments are pretty spot on. Anyway, I agree completely with Salectric that the smaller value CAST caps with no internal paper and the "non organic substance" do not sound as good. That is what we have found through much use and trial.

I am confused and will the real CAST cap please stand up?
Frederik, the cap was disposed of. The layers were peeled back and no paper, simply copper foil with soft plastic. I could also find no oil? This is what was found in this one cap. I would think oil would appear over some time, but it never emerged from the split open cap.

I call it plastic as I don't know what the substance is.

Again, the cap sounds good and I was and am simply confused on how it could be called PIO. That's all.
Thanks Frederik. That explains why no oil as there was no paper. Ya, this is best handled off-line. Thanks again for taking the time to post here.
Tas

I have Duelund CAST caps in my Dude as well as upgraded signal wire, resistors and extra power supply capacitance. I have the Jupiter Copper foil caps coming Wednesday and will put them in the Dude. I like them better as they are just more musical based on my experience in electronics only thus far. More even handed top to bottom with equal resolution and superior micro details and bass.

I also plan to put them in my speakers once the speaker values are out.
Yes the New Jupiter case are wonderful. I spoke with Chris of Jupiter today and he think the speaker values will be ready in 3 weeks. Values up to 22uf!

I want some for my tweeter and hope this is accurate.
Yes they are. Two in my preamp and 4 in my CD player. Waiting for the larger values for my crossover. I also placed 8 in some Thor amps. They are spectacular. Several of us replaced Duelund CAST in our preamps and love the improvement. The Duelund caps are wonderful in our preamps, but these are better to our ears.

I suppose I don't know for sure if the speaker value Jupiters will be as good or better than the Duelund as I have only used them in electronics. Beta testers say the speaker value Jupiter caps are just as special in crossovers.
Hi Tas, Paul the builder/owner at TRL is the one who has helped me with any improvements. He uses Duelund and now Jupiter copper foil caps, will build a Dude with increased capacitance, one or two volumes, with 2 or 4 6sn7 tubes, and on and on.

He suggested resistor types and what they sound like. I did change the signal wire, but that is just my own need to tweak and play as the solid core copper he uses is just fine. I just have to play with my soldering iron :)

Fuses? Never as they hurt the sound. Paul designs his gear without them and his gear is absolutely stable and bullet proof. I won't go into the details, but he uses other methods and avoids fuses altogether.

Paul is expert at what a music system should sound like due to his vast recording experience and always shoots for live and alive sounding gear. He designs in a way that assures his gear will not hold back or do harm to the intended musical experience. With TRL gear you get it all in terms of the energy, detail, scale and impact.
Question folks. What inductor brand is great sounding after Duelund. I cannot afford Duelund and wonder what brand is next. Mundorf?

Need a .33mf and 1.6mf.

Thanks
Salectric

I ordered some and thanks for the post. I was leaning towards them and your post helped.
You will love them for sure. My go to cap now for electronics. Wish they would get the speaker value caps out. Taking a long, long time....
John K? What? I don't follow your post at all. We are talking about projects over time, not one static piece of gear.
Agreed. No bypass cap needed. Get Jupiter copper foil for FAR less money and they sound every bit as good....better to several good ears. No kidding. Your value will be out this or next week I am told. They are the SOTA in caps and sound quality based on my experience and others.
Tom. How does one mechanically couple away vibrations on theses flat caps? With small brass points? How are the points attached to the bottom of the cap? Glue on the flat side of the cone?

I am building an outboard crossover for my speakers as do think all the turbulence in the bass chamber is not a good thing. I would love to mechanically couple away vibrations on my outboard crossover board.

Thanks much.
Every single mod I have done was only after living with the original for a long time. Not sure who your question was for John? As for me, I just completed another speaker mod that turned my good speaker Into something great for $700. Easily 40 % better to my ears which is all that matters.
Tom, I think your statement is spot on and what happened for me. DCR difference is something that must be dealt with in some instances. Wether it is audible or not, good or bad sound wise, or if a lower DCR necessitates the use of an additional resistor are all real considerations.

John, my inductors were clearly marked with a label stating the value. Call North Creek as I am sure they can determine the value of yours.

If you change the gauge you may very well change the inductor's DCR which can change the sound of your speaker and tonal balance. In my case all went astoundingly well. George of North Creek is very helpful and can help you.
Salectric

Thanks a bunch for your post. I take it seriously and will think more on your comments.
I did not this time around as that would require more investment of money that I don't have right now. Just mounted the crossover on a board outside the speaker.
Air I agree you on the Solen inductors for bass, but the North Creek is in another league. Check them out on your next project!
I will need to look, the Parts Connextion site says its a PIO as well as reviews and website....
Salectric

This 1 ohm resistor would be used in series with a 3.6uf Jupiter copper foil cap. Used to to tame the Raal tweeter just a tad. Just a tad.
Salectric, thanks for the tip on the North Creek inductors. I have had them in the crossover for about 50 hours. They replaced the Solen stock inductors of a very thin gauge. The NC inductors I used were 10 guage and about 3-4 times the size.

I was was little concerned the Q value would change as the NC inductors have far lower DCR values. As low as .04! I knew the sound would change, but was not sure if it would be better or need more tweaking by using resistors. My crossover has no resistors in it.

Well I learned a great deal because of this upgrade. I have never changed inductors before and felt they may not be as important as caps and resistors. I was wrong. Very wrong.

No need to add resistors as the result is stellar.

The NC inductors improved the sound as much as a Duelund cap vs Solen.

I will let these inductors settle in and then upgrade the caps to Jupiter.

$435 upgrade to a $16,000 speaker turned out to be wonderful. Thanks again for the tip!
Sorry Air, I thought you were talking about Solen inductors! I found the North Creek to outclass the Solen inductors by quite a margin.

Yes Solen caps are far better than electrolytic caps for sure in that position. No choice, or little choice in values that large for bass. Clarity now makes some nice TC film caps that cost more than the Solens, but are said to be very, very good.
The low DCR value of the North Creek was a very good thing in my speaker. Did not change the tone at all for the worse. Not sure the tone changed at all. Just a better sounding speaker now. I can put a .33 ohm resistor in series with the NC inductor to ground to match the higher DCR of the old Solen inductors. I tried that and quite frankly heard very little difference. In the end no resistor was needed.

George at North Creek was confident his lower DCR inductor would improve the sound and walked me through the reasoning. Based on my experience lower DCR is a good thing.

I suppose in some situations it may change the tone etc... a tad. It did not in my crossover and speaker. Just cleaner, faster, better micro detail, backer background, and more musical.
Jupiters are anything but slow and damped in sound. In my experience they set the new standard for natural and neutral sound.

No worries about slow and damped. What Jupiter has achieved is certainly something needed in our hobby. Affordable SOTA capacitors that give nothing up to those caps costing several hundred to over one thousand dollars each. Those who have used them in tube amps and preamps have told me the same. They are very good!
Salectric

Good to hear. I was looking at your system again and your DIY amps look very well built. Nice work!

So it seems caps or resistors to shunt in a crossover are in fact important!

I know this to be true from experience. Interesting how the builders for the two last speakers I have owned said parts in these positions to not make a difference. They said Zobel network and/or parts to shunt ground are not important. I am curious why they say this, but actual experience in those same designs proves otherwise.

Those with crossover parts in these positions please do not overlook them for an upgrade as they do in fact make a difference.

Is your crossover internal or external? Love to see a picture. I found removing the crossover from all the turbulence in the cabinet yields more sonic improvement which makes sense.

I removed the crossover from my Lahave speaker and rebuilt them with upgraded parts outboard. I also damped the outboard box and placed it on stand. You helped me source those wonderful North Creek inductors and I also used Duelund and Jupiter caps as well as Jupiter solid core copper wire .... 14 gauge. I also rewired the speaker from drivers to outboard crossover with the same Jupiter solid core copper and cotton wire.

The results are stunning and well worth the effort.

I bet your speakers sound fantastic as well as your system. Really like viewing your system page. I will post mine again soon.
Volley, you will give up nothing compared to the Duelund CAST caps used in electronics vs. Jupiter copper caps. At least the ones sold at Parts Connextion. I and many others, all others I know who have done it, prefer the new Jupiter caps in their electronics. Thus far we have used them in DAC's and tube preamps & power amps.
Look out Charles as you must now look at the all important resistors in key positions. Oh ya, they matter. Some nice Vishay TX 2575 Z Foils! Also the very musical Shinkoh. Super Franks!
The only Jupiter caps I have ever used were the flat stacked HT and the new copper foil. These are the top end of their line. Both are very good, but the new copper foil are more neutral and resolving revealing far more micro details. The new copper caps manage to deliver SOTA resolution without ever sounding hard, forced, bright or thin. Even handed top to bottom. Smooth as silk and lots of air. They seem to have it all. At least compared to everything else currently available.
I would also add this is based on the Duelund CAST caps Parts Connextion is selling. These had no paper. At least the ones I had, or the one cut in half. It could be you had a different Duelund cap?

If you still have your leaky cap, cut it in half the long way and tell us if you have any paper or just layers of plastic film like mine.
To be honest I am becoming less enamored with Duelund. With Jupiter who needs the crazy expense and I am hearing of leaky CAST caps regularly from folks. Duelund is very good about replacing leaky caps for free and that is a good thing.

I am also confused as to what a CAST cap is! The .22uf one in my work room, cut in half, has no paper in it and has layer after layer of thin plastic or Mylar stuff. No joke guys.

I sense the lower voltage crossover CAST caps, the ones that are wide and flatter, are the most special ones.

I just purchased some Jupiter copper foil caps for speakers. The new 100 volt caps. I will report back to all once they are in.

Thus far the high voltage Jupiter caps have bested the high voltage CAST caps in the electronics I have used. We will see how good the 100 volt crossover caps are soon. The 3.3 uf caps cost $200 each and are not cheap, but they are still priced well under CAST. They go on sale for 20% off at Parts C and Sonic Craft reducing the cost to $160 each.
From the Duelund site....page on CAST capacitors. Yes mine do say CAST on them....

CAST
World’s best capacitor…

The Duelund CAST Capacitor is our no holds barred flagship capacitor.

The construction builds on the foundation of our Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure.

This creates a form with incredible damping properties giving a mechanical stability hitherto unheard of.

On top of this casting process, a ring of hard pressed paper strengthens the damping properties of the design helping music flow effortlessly.

The Duelund CAST capacitor is available for speaker use and as the CAST 630v for DC-applications for size considerations this cap is cylindrical.

Available as pure copper or copper/silver.

Standard sizes 0.001 uF – 50 uF other values available on request.

The Duelund CAST Capacitor is considered the world’s best capacitor:
Ya nice idea for sure. Needed in crossovers unless you only have one driver .... And I have not head a one driver speaker I like as much as my two way.

Needed in tube amps for coupling unless you use transformers to couple. But transformers have their set of sonic limitations also. Pick your poison!

Direct coupled! Perhaps, need to know more about the downsides that this design....always downsides.
They fell off? Do you mean they broke off from handling? I have had that happen with caps when I was bending the wire leads too much. The thinner gauge silver leads seem more prone to that.

I assume you can get refunded? Perhaps you should call Chris at Jupiter and talk to him. I have installed over 18 of these Jupiter caps with no issues.......knock on wood...
Charles for electronics go with Jupiter. Just better in tube amps and preamps based on my experience as well as at least 5 others who replaced CAST with Jupiter copper caps.

I have not used them in a phono stage, but have had SOTA results in my tube amps and CD player. They are more even handed top to bottom, have more air and improved micro details. I also find them a tad smoother in the upper mids.

Both would be a big improvement if your amp has a Solen cap or something of like quality.

I know builders now using Jupiter instead of Duelund based on SQ only.
The older, less expensive Jupiter caps had that problem Pete. Not the new ones. I think you heard the old ones, not the brand new copper foil ones. The new ones spank the Vcaps all day long.

Jupiter makes HT flat stacked and HT round which replaced the old leaky caps you speak of. These were and are aluminum caps......not the brand new copper foil.