Tas, I think the standard Duelund resistors will be perfect for the RC network position they are in. While parts quality make a difference in this position, not as much as the cap in the direct signal path of you tweeter.
The choices you made for resistors and caps in the RC networks are very reasonable with reasonable cost. They are far better than what they replace and that to my thinking is the right decision for this application.
Love to hear others jump in and give opinions. |
Yes, all parts in all areas are important. Mills MR and standard Duelund resistors are both good choices for use in the RC networks of your speakers. You will be thrilled! |
Jupiter HT flat stacked still sound dull, thick and slow. Not happy with them thus far. The standard Mundorf Supremes were better on the mids of my speaker.....but perhaps more burn in is needed. |
Sherod, you are right. Just don't have the funds for 6.8 and 3.3uf CAST caps. I will try bypassing the Jupiter next with some modded Wima caps.
I also do this stuff to learn. |
Well I may have posted too quickly. The Jupiter HT flat stacked caps are sounding better. No longer thick or slow. Now they are more open and extended. Very warm sounding. I still need a little more resolution and air.... We will see. |
I work so hard on mods I have no other free time:-) |
Anyone have a comment based on actual experience of bypassing a nice Mundorf Supreme or similar on the mids or highs in a speaker crossover.
Like to hear about your results. |
I know a couple of builders who LOVE the new Jupiter caps and have nothing but praise for them. I am been too busy of late to install mine and hope to do it this weekend in my Dude. |
Others have had great luck with bypassing. I bypassed in my preamp last week and the results were outstanding. Bigger improvement in my preamp than going from a standard film output cap to Duelund CAST. I bypassed every single B+ power supply cap and filament supply cap with a bundle of JFX premium film caps. The results were astounding. The improved resolution, air and black background were shocking. Everything that was great remained, no negatives, only more information served up with an even greater sense of ease and natural tone.
Many, many mod gurus have experienced the same thing with bypass caps in electronics and speaker crossovers. One simply does not know the result until they try it themselves. All our words are mere speculation as this topic has way too many variables to conclusively say yes or no to bypassing in general. Simply cannot make such a wide sweeping statement.
That is why I am asking for first hand experience based on actual mods performed.
Do some research on this topic and you'll find both camps. I have read enough glowing reviews about bypassing, from credible sources, that my "open mind" had to try it. The positive results in my preamp tell me it is at least possible to have a great outcome bypassing.
An a/b comparison of my preamp before and after the bypass mod in the power supply reveals nothing but great results after the bypass surgery.
It is simple for me to remove these bypass bundles listen and then put them back in. No contest! Caption obvious difference.
Credible sources bypass caps in speaker crossovers to great effect, but it is dependent on the speaker design, caps to be bypassed and the bypass cap.
Ric Schultz of EVS uses Wima caps that he modifies with better copper leads. He uses these very tiny caps to great effect in his professional mods. I will be using these modified Wima caps on a Mundorf SIO cap in my speakers on the mids. I will report back on the results.
I have learned that this whole bypass question has no general answer. You wont know until you try. Some results will be stellar, some no change, some poor. |
To better clarify what I did with bypass caps in the power supply of my preamp here is more info....
I essentially used cascading bypass capacitor bundles. I cascaded three capacitors with smaller and smaller uf values. I also made sure the smaller value caps had higher voltage ratings. For example...
20 uf. 400v
2 uf 600v
.22 uf 1000v
I paralleled these bundles on top of each large can electrolytic.
Great results. |
Salectric,
Thanks for the response. Have you tried a Wima small value cap under .33 uf value? My mids cap is a 3.0 uf and I am going to try a small Wima.
Perhaps a value of 1uf is too high as a high pass, bypass cap?
Thoughts? |
I bypassed the output caps in my Lampizator today with Wima caps. Just like you said Salectric there seemed to be better highs and more air, but after 3 hours....no go. Things were to bright and emphasized in the highs.
My preamp bypass caps in the power supply did not do that however and worked perfectly with no negatives. So, in the right position, value, and gear they can indeed work. As I have said, it depends on the gear and not so much personal preference or ears. Nobody would say my preamp was better sounding before the bypass mod. Most would not like the bypass cap sound on my Lampizator on the output cap. Certainly nobody in my home did.
I am going to wait on those Jupiter caps for my Lampi! Instead of Duelund I am going to try these new ones. I will do so as I hear they will cost less. |
Salectric, I also agree with you that personal preference can in some instances certainly play a role.
Emailed Ric at EVS and I used the wrong value Wima as a bypass in my Lampizator and will try the mod again once I get the right value. I will report back! |
I now have Mundorf Supreme 3.3uf caps and Ric Schultz's modified Wima .33uf caps as a bypass combos on the computer grade caps in my preamp's power supply and the result is fantastic!
One can hear the difference in caps used in bypass positions quite clearly. The above combo is very good in my preamp. I tried some older Audience caps for bypassing and did not like them at all. |
Just an update on the importance of caps used in parallel positions in a crossover. Another way to say this are capacitors used as part of a Zobel network. Some suggest they are not as important and go so far as to say they not important at all since they are not part of the signal path. Wrong! Double wrong!
I have used three different brands of capacitors on the mid drivers in my Coincident Total Victory III speakers. Each one had an immediate impact on the sound quality. Not one of them sounded the same. The last and final one I used are Mundorf SIO caps bypassed with a modified Wima .15uf value. These are the best by a wide margin. Just outstanding!
They replaced Jupiter HT flat stacked with no bypass cap on it. The Mundorf/Wima combo is better in every way imaginable. So detailed and smooth. Nice air and natural tone. These are staying for sure.
Those of you with Zobel networks in your speakers go ahead and upgrade the resistors and caps and be rewarded with substantial sound quality improvement.
The combo of Mundorf SIO bypassed with modified Wima caps from Ric Schultz is very good indeed. Very good. |
Tas, please let us know when your mod is complete. Also, feel free to email me with any questions if you run into some confusion along the way.
Be sure to use a good solder. WBT with 4% silver is one good choice. Be sure to tin or coat any exposed copper wire to prevent oxidation and soumd degregation over time.
I have one more mod in mind for my speakers. I will update you on the results shortly. |
For those of you interested in the new Jupiter copper caps. Thus far my listening proves out they have the same noise free personality of the Duelund CAST. They must build these like the CAST in some way as they are well damped and seem to remove noise like the Duelund CAST.
They are beautiful sounding with no weakness I can detect as yet. |
Jupiter says one month away from intro. I spoke with them yesterday. |
Just an FYI to all. I have ended up with Jupiter Flat Stacked caps in my speaker on the mids and tweeter. After extensive break in they surpassed the Mundorf SIO to my ears. They are more full bodied sounding than the Mundorf and that ultimately won me over. The Jupiters can sound a tad dull at first, but after break in they open up nicely.
Still waiting on the new Jupiter caps for my dac! |
They make the Duelund's sound broken!
Could not resist saying that. No idea how they sound as I have not put them in my gear as yet. I will soon.....this weekend most likely and let you know. |
Hi Tas
No the wire is not directional. Hook it up and go! |
Thanks Rick I am on it! Have some coming in for my dac first. |
Jupiters have been beta tested by folks who know Duelund and they say the Jupiter's are as good or even a tad better :-) |
Ya, got mine from both Jupiter and Sonicraft. SC has a 20% off sale right now. They have them in stock and just not on the site as yet. |
I have one of my monoblock amps with the Jupiter copper caps in place. The amp uses two size coupling caps .47uf and a .10 uf in parallel. The other amp has Audio Note Copper caps. I will compare both over the next couple of weeks. If the Jupiters win, then I will buy caps for the other amp. First time I have tried it this way...one amp first, then the other.
Thus far the Jupiters sound more refined and more natural. Voices are smoother with the Jupiters.
My amps are Thor TPA 30's. |
I do realize comparisons will be limited with one amp, but it is a decent way to start. |
Tas let us know the results!
Well the Jupiter copper caps have settled in and oh my they are first rate. Solidity and refinement with no part of the music spectrum out of balance. Top to bottom pitch perfect coherency and tone. Based on my knowledge with extensive use of the Duelund CAST caps in various pieces of gear and the resulting change (electronics)......I would say the following is the one area of of main difference between these two caps.
The Duelund CAST caps emphasize the mids just a tad over the rest of the spectrum. The new Jupiter caps do not. They play music more even handed top to bottom in my estimation. Some will feel the CAST are more revealing or resolute, but it may just be the tad bit of midrange boost.
One would have to hear the Jupiter caps to understand the difference. My comments are based on electronics, not speakers. The Jupiter caps are not available in values over 1uf right now.
The CAST and Jupiter caps are two great choices for sure. I don't feel choosing one way or the other in electronics leaves much room for buyers remorse or opportunity cost. |
More on order for my digital front end now! |
1markr
You are right. These Jupiter caps sound good right away. Good, not great, but very, very good. I found only 50 hours really begins to show these puppies off. |
Salectric,
Boy that is a great question and a little difficult to answer in some ways. The refinement part is easy. Yes, the Jupiters are more refined and solid sounding if you will. Smooth and tidy!
As far as air, I cannot say the Jupiters have more air. At least not at this point. |
I also find the micro-details are amazing and they are served up with naturalness that defies most electronic gear. |
JFX caps are a steal for the money in electronics as they cost $4 each! I would rather use JFX as compared to any Mundorf caps, Solen etc.....
In terms of how they compare to Jupiter in electronics, well not in the same league at all. |
AudioL,
Yes I do sir. In my current pieces I have modifications in my preamp, speakers and amplifiers. |
AudioL,
Great question. Well you have choices, best choices, at various price points.
The best choice for reasonable money are the Jupiter HT flat stacked. They are very musical and the opposite of cold and sterile. They offer a wonderful balance of resolution and meat on the bones musicality.
I have not had good luck with any of the Mundorf caps in this position. They tend to sound a tad thin and a tad emphasized in the upper mids and treble. At first they are impressive, but over time they wear on my ears.
If you want to spend even less, then the Obbligato Premium Gold caps are very good for the money.
If you want the best of the best and price is not a concern, then you have two choices. The Duelund CAST caps and the coming Jupiter copper foil. The Jupiter caps are far less money and are in production as I type. They should be available soon. Based on the performance of the electronic sizes now available, I think I would go with the new Jupiter copper foil. They are as good and far less money. At least this has been true of the values up to 1uf thus far. |
AudioL,
It it so difficult to talk in percentages of improvement as numbers don't really seem to get at the actual experience.
If forced, I would say 30%, but more importantly the music is demonstrably more engaging and real. Less Hifi....more real. |
Salectric is right. If you are certain you have the right position and they are not power supply caps, then replace them. If they are output caps, then no need for that value and a 1 uf will be fine.
I replaced the 100uf output caps in my Sony NS 900 CD player with .47uf Duelund CAST two years ago and the improvement was astouding!
Salectric explained it well. Just be sure those are the right caps to replace. Wether 47uf, 100uf or 470uf, if they are output caps, then 1 uf will work great. Most inexpensive, mass market, CD players use these very large value electrolytic caps as output caps as an FYI. |
Tas, you are right! It seems almost all speaker builders cheap out on the crossover parts. Even speakers that retail for $20,000 or more! Folks spend lots of money ugrading gear, tubes, wire when upgrading crossover parts often times does more good than all the rest.
In terms of 30%, goodness that is an impossible number to come at in realality as we all perceive and judge this sort of thing with our own subjective scale... Bottom line is this, does your system sound more like music in an apprecable manner. If so...success! |
One other thing to consider. Replacing caps on a circuit board is more work. It can be a lot more work if space is tight, the board is cheap, the board has to be removed, there are small resistors in close proximity.........
It can be tricky and ask yourself if you are up to the task. If you over heat the board you will lift a pad or trace easily. You ould damage the unit so much that you need a new board or more likely.........trash the unit depending on age.
Are you up to the task? Practice on a $30 player/board many times desoldering parts and replacing. You also need a good soldering station. |
Charles is right. We are saying the designs are very good. In many cases the drivers and cab are also high quality. But often times they use low cost resistors, caps, and inductors thinking they don't make much of a difference or whatever the reason. I say don't skimp on crossover parts when selling a $12,000 plus speaker! Go ahead and use a $10 resistor instead of a $ .50 cent one. Go ahead and use a $200 cap instead of a $5 one..... |
Hi Marqmike,
My wife's system has the Mozart original speakers, not the newer Grands. But we love them! She won't let me touch her system with a soldering iron! She said leave it alone and I have obeyed.
One thing I did do based on a past Stereophile review was reverse the polarity on the tweeter which was mis-wired. I say mis-wired as both Stereophile and I noted the vast improvement with the wires reversed. The speaker opened up a ton and sounds fantastic with this done. My wife even agreed :-)
I am not sure the Grand has the same issue....I doubt it. |
Roxy54
Yes responded twice? |
Yes, the current CAST is not paper in oil. Agreed this is misleading for sure. |
The Jupiter caps are not forward sounding or forced in the least. I have used them as output caps and coupling caps in my gear and they are very special.
More pleased with these in terms of musicality than any other cap I have tried, and I have tried lots :-) |
I have to update all on these Jupiter copper foil caps after over 100 hours of break-in. They keep getting better and better.
They are so darn real sounding. The micro details of human voice and instrument is astounding. Couple this with the sense of heft, weight and body they have and no cap is it's equal.....no cap.
They have an uncanny sense of depth and while I have said this before, the unforced naturalness is such a welcomed musical reality. Smoothness is state of the art without a doubt. Ya, I am worked up over these music making parts. Placed in critical positions, they will make you smile and pay attention to the music.....
Do not judge these until you get at least 100 hours. If they continue to get better, my wife will need to sedate me!
Note....these are the smaller value caps for electronics. They are used in my Thor TPA30 tube amps....4 in each amp as part of the signal path. Four in my Aesthetix Romulus CD player. |
Thanks Charles. I am sensitive it seems. Sorry. |
Some interesting information is coming out on the very good Duelund CAST caps. I have seen pictures of one cut in half and it is pretty interesting what is inside. They contain lots of a plastic type substance and no paper or oil. Ya, you are reading this correctly.
This certainly takes nothing away from their good sound, but I had always thought they were paper in oil types? I think all the independent reviews list this cap as PIO and it is not apparently.
The new Jupiter caps are indeed PIO with copper foil. They continue to sound better past 100 hours and for electronics they are very special indeed. Love to hear some in my speakers once those values are out! |
Yes, you are correct. Wax instead on oil............ |
The Duelund CAST may contain some oil but it would not impregnate the Mylar type substance inside the cap. Some suggest the little that is there may be to preserve the copper? |
Correction " the little oil that MAY be there". Looks to be none. |
I am not sure Duelund claims or ever claimed paper and no plastic, but many of us assumed that as did reviewers.
They may have some oil, but certainly not impregnated in the plastic stuff.
None of this takes away from the sound, but I do find it interesting. I am Into the story of products and how they are built and designed. |
