Kal
Thank you for reprising. It does seem strange to to
spend the extra $$ just to fake people into thinking
they have something they don't really have I.E.
capability for "true" bi-amping.
However, I have thought for sometime that using two amps per side might be a good idea. That is provided the masquarade of the dual input does not extend to the crossover design as well. I for one would never know. I guess the experiement would be to hook up the amps seperately to each set of inputs (low/high) and listen
to what comes out.
Sgr
Thank you for reenforcing an idea that I had.
Yes, I originally got the RANE for hi/lo main speaker adjustment, but I did notice that low freq I/O section.
I will attempt to put that ideal to good use. I will post what happens once i finally get amp, or second set of amps. |
Having owned Revel Salons, which have the same configuration as the Studios, to biamp the speakers all you really need to do is hook your preamp to two different stereo amplifiers, remove the jumpers between the speaker terminals on the back of the speakers, then run one set of speaker leads to the bass, and run the other set of speaker leads to the mid/treble terminals. You could use one stereo amplifier per speaker: right channel for the bass and left channel for the mid treble if you have matching amps. If you have differnt amps, use one amp's right and left terminals for the bass and one amp's terminals for the mid/treble. Do not disable the internal crossover! The proper use for your Rane Crossover is to purchase a subwoofer or subwoofers like the JL Audio, cross the Studios over at about 80 hertz so that the subs do the lowest bass, and your other pair of amps do the upper bass, midrange and treble. You can have outstanding results this way but it will require lots of tweaking. The reason I'd recommend the JL Audio subs like the f-113s is that they have built in software that will find the areas in your setup that need bass reinforcement and attenuate themselves. The only way I no to get better sound would be to have a professional with test equipment set up the subs.
You could also get great results with the Velodyne subs.
Let me know if you need more info.
Vertically or horizontally biamping the Studios can bring exiciting results and is recommneded by Kevin Voecks who I've spoken to several times. Kevin would also endorse the inclusion of subs I believe as he helped me attaint the highest level I ever brought my system to in this way.
You will enjoy this setup more if you use identical amps, speaker wires, interconnects, isolation,etc.
Hope this helps,
Sgr |
"If the speaker manufacturer provided seperate inputs, then they also think it is a good idea to biamp (not just bi-wire!)."
A few manufacturer's and designers have said, privately, that they provide these inputs in response to demands from their dealers/customers and not for any other reasons.
Kal |
I thought I'd bring this thread back to life since I am going down the bi-amp route now with a pair of Von Schweikert VR4.5 speakers.
I started down the "active" route and NOTHING sounded right at all. As KAL and Raul have stated, those speaker designers spent a lot of energy coming up with the crossovers. You have to spend a LOT of money to reproduce the transfer function correctly. I'm sure it can be done to good effect but I wasn't getting there. Out went the crossover idea.
I did some more research and athough a lot of people dismissed it, the passive bi-amping (I think that is what it's called) is the way to go. If the speaker manufacturer provided seperate inputs, then they also think it is a good idea to biamp (not just bi-wire!).
Just have two amps go straight into the speaker with no external crossover and let the speaker crossover do the work. If you are using the same amps you are done!
But have you exploited all the advantages of bi-amping?
I will respectfully disagree with Raul about using different amps. I'm no trail blazer here and this advice came from none other than Albert Von Schweikert himself who advocates using SS for the Lows and tubes for the Highs. Check it out on the AudioCircle VS forum:
wwwdotaudiocircledotcom/index.php?topic=59529.0
So it can be done and to good effect.
VERY IMPORTANT: If you use different amps, as I have, then you still have some work to do to level match the amps. Get out your Radio Shack db meter and feed white noise (or is it pink noise?) and adjust until even. A simple resistor attenuator is all that's needed. You can build one into an RCA or XLR "adapter" that can go between your preamp and amp.
I used an NHT PVC to adjust and will eventually build the adapters and remove the NHT.
I am very happy with the sound. I now have the smoothness of a tube amp (Thor TPA-60) and the bass slam of SS (Sim W5) - the best of both worlds. Did I say I am very happy with the sound? Oh, yes i did8-).
HTH |
If you have to ask about room treatments, you need them.
Kal |
To all who have or may post answers, thank you for your help. I will not mess with crossover's Revel Studios.
I do however wonder why the put Hi/Low inputs on the speaker in the first palce. I would like to ask Mr. Vokes that question.
I would still like to upgrade. So I will ask once more of you some advice. Is my current setup of Pass Aleph P and Aleph2 mono blocks a good match for my first generation Studios?
The remainder of the system is Rega P5 with Benz L2 cart. Jolida JD9 tube phono stage with Underwood level 2 mod.
Rega Jupiter CD player.
Should I go for room treatments, better TT, Better CD??
Or maybe just a nice rack. What upgrade would make sound difference?
Again thank you all very much! |
Dear Face: Your advise IMHO could means maybe to attain a " different " sound but not necessarily a better one.
As Stringreen point out: " all that R&D that Revel did.... " means between other things that the speakers were voiced with that original crossover parts.
Of course that if we are lucky enough and if we know what we are doing maybe we can/could attain a better performance but not always.
+++++ " If Revel thought biamping would improve this speaker, they would have included the necessary inputs. " +++++
this can't be more true. In the past I ask to a two different speaker designers ( Jim Thiel and Neil Pattel ) how to bi-amp their speakers and if there will be an improvement doing this. Both designers ( by separate ) give me the same answer: what Stringreen posted.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
If you want better sound, upgrade the parts in the original crossover. It's better than re-engineering a speaker when you have no idea what you're doing. |
EEGADS....all that R&D that Revel did on that speaker and with a blind snip you'll defeat it. If Revel thought biamping would improve this speaker, they would have included the necessary inputs. I would NEVER do this... Return your new electronic crossover, pour yourself a bit of single malt, and put on a soothing recording. |
Dear Bhodge: I agree with Kal: a mistake if you don't have the transfer fuction on the original.
IMHO in a biamp " fashion " and if we really care about music and music sound reproduction it is better to choose the same amplifier model for both frequency ranges becaus we need the same sound/accuracy/distortion/coloration/noise " signature " in both frequency ranges.
The other subject is that to attain/mantain a first rate quality performance on the speakers the active/external electronic crossver must be a first rate/top quality level and execution design to avoid heavy degradation/distortions to the audio signal.
The Rane IMHO is a " nice " unit but not a top unit and through it you could do more harm than good to your audio system quality performance.
Only an opinion an all depend of what are you looking for along your music sound quality priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Thank you for answering. Im afraid I have no measuring devices. I am a novice. Although I have already spent on the crossover, I still want to buy a second amp to go with the studios. I have done some reading on the bi-amp subject and know enough to leave the speakers crossover alone if not sure about how to remove them from the signal path. |
This is a mistake unless you have the tools to simulate the transfer function of the original crossover. Remember that the crossover is tailored to these speakers and accomplishes much more than a textbook division of frequencies at a fixed slope.
What measurement and analysis tools do you have?
Kal |
