Buying and Selling; shipping items and Escrow.com

(+1 @ elliottbnewcombjr)

The answer is simple -

Include the cost of VISA, PP or other secure transactions (usually 3%) when negotiating the final cost (including shipping) of the offered item(s).

All buyers - NEVER use PP F&F, cash, or direct payments. 

All sellers - please know that requiring F&F, cash, etc. nearly eliminates the opportunity for a sale of your equipment.  I/we will never buy from you...

Case closed.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I only accept personal check or money order for my sales. Commonly folks ask to pay me via PayPal and I only accept F&F in that instance. It has not hurt my sales at all, in fact, I only have one piece for sale at the moment.

Then again, I do not ever ship large speakers as the OP is correct, these have an increased probability of damage, so I sell these on Craigslist, and would never purchase large speakers that had to be shipped. If I did, I would ship via a moving company, rather than a common carrier.

As a buyer, I am sympathetic to sellers that ask for F&F, and purchased a Naim Supercap for several thousand dollars last month F&F. It’s certainly not for everyone, but to believe that there are not a ton of transactions happening this way is simply uninformed thinking.

There are also some great dealers of used gear for the risk averse, TMR and ECHO are both excellent.

As the seller, I only accept certain payment (cleared check, or money order, etc.) and shipping terms of FOB (Free on Board) - in which the buyer’s shipper picks up the item, the buyer pays for shipping directly to the shipper, and risk of loss during shipment is the buyer’s risk to file claims with the shipper. Or, the buyer can pick up the item personally.

The buyer is free to choose the shipper the buyer prefers (UPS, FedEx, or freight shipper, etc.).

"UPS Pack & Ship" appears to be a good alternative for shipment to assure good insurance coverage and minimal potential for difficulties in settlement of claims.

I take plenty of pics of the item, the packaging and the packing process to provide to the buyer to support any claims.

The buyer is in control of the shipment and the risks, and determines the shipper in which he has the greatest confidence, who honors their insurance, which may be a freight shipper.

That is the best way to avoid conflicts.

@viridian and @bassdude

Thanks for the comments. 

I understand you, and many sellers, would prefer to put ALL of the Risk on the seller.  How nice for you. 

But there a few problems...

1. All functional (and most cosmetic) issues can be hidden with good photography.

2. AG advertisements require an item to be assigned a condition-rating (e.g. 9/10) and to state any defects (both functional and cosmetic).  If it ARRIVES (to the buyer) in a lesser condition, you are in breach of that contract (i.e. false advertising).

3. Cash up-front (including F&F), with no item in-hand leaves the buyer stranded, hoping they are not getting ripped-off.  If an issue arises, the Buyer does all of the work to rectify the problem - Truly unscrupulous.  

4. Sellers may have gotten the items from the gray-market, with absolutely no provenance, with the intent to 'flip' them for profit.  Consequently, the internal parts may not be original parts or may not even be functional.

5. The items being sold may be a knock-off items.  This is a very common issue with cables, tubes, etc. - it seems that China is especially adept at imitating trademarked goods.

If I were working with a Used Car Dealer, instead buying your used audio gear, at least I would have the chance to drive it, look under the hood, kick the tires, etc. BEFORE turning over my cash.

Clearly, your sales process falls below that considerably very-low bar.

** Again, I encourage ALL BUYERS to avoid buying from dealers who will not stand behind the sale.  It is our money, and we deserve to be protected from scammers. 

Ethical sellers should know enough to avoid that crowd by using a buyer-protection backed medium (ex. Credit Cards, PP, etc.).

@inagroove LOL, again more misinformation from someone with a paucity of feedback on this site. And a failure to address the misinformation called out in the first post. Do you even read what you are posting? Neither of us wants to shift risk to the seller, which is what you wrote in your second sentence. We are shifting the risk to the to the buyer.

First, independent of the method of payment, Audiogon requires the goods to arrive to the buyer in the condition described in the ad. Simple as that. I have had an item arrived damaged to the buyer on two occasions and have given a choice, both times, of an immediate refund, and return shipping, or a discount from the price paid. You don’t get years of great feedback by treating fellow hobbyists inequitibly.

There are a lot of no feedback, or low feedback, folks buying on this site. Feedback is the primary source of trust for me. So even though I treat them the same as any other buyer, I want to be insulated from PayPal charge backs and buyer scams.

I walk the walk, and am happy to make purchases using money order, personal check or friends and family on a regular basis. If I am asking other folks to do that, it is only fair that I do the same as a buyer as well.

Some of the members here were members of a print publication called Audiomart, this is before the advent of the internet. We bought and sold, much as we do now and, after making a deal on the telephone, it was not uncommon for the seller to ship the goods before the check from the buyer arrived.

You, and others here, may be averse to certain payment methods, nothing wrong with that. Dont buy, you dont seem to do a lot of that anyway, another expert free of experience keeping the internet safe. But the rest is a fine stew of paranoia with a side of fake news.