Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Hi all,

The Green Giant Lenco -- no longer so giant, in comparison to later designs -- that Jean built me, is, with its modest compliment of SMEIII/Shure M97EraIVHE and AT1005mkII/Denon DL103, FANTASTIC. Just fabulous, and every one I play it for flips out with how top to bottom, side to side, micro to macro, whisper to thunder good it is at making music out of tiny bumps on vinyl grooves. I've had it better than a year now, and am amazed everyday, whether it by playing Bach, Bartok, Beatles, Basie, Bluegrass, whatever.

Jean has also always been personally generous, helpful, and friendly to me as well.

Now, is his rhetoric in favor of the Lenco hyperbolic? I am in no position to say. But the evidence so far seems to be that it has beat all comers up to 20k. One would think that if there are counterexamples, then they would be reported (and those reports multiply iterated) by the defenders of the belt drive hegemony. After all, they would be reports of opinion ("I thought my INSERT NAME HERE belt drive system sounded better in this and that way than the Lenco"), and you can't argue with those. (I've never noticed Jean dispute any such claim of personal opinion.) And those who have spent big bucks on belt drive systems, either as desgners, manufacturers or consumers, have lots of interest in making such reports, candidly or otherwise. But you JUST DON'T SEE SUCH REPORTS. That is really something. So maybe his claims to absolute superiority of the Lenco are not hyperbolic.

His packaging his claims in terms of "science" is rather grandiose, to be sure. Here "science" just seems to be good old reasonable judgment, based on weighty evidence rather than hearsay and biased propoganda. I haven't heard of any of Jean's evidence consisting of double blind control group studies of statistically significant numbers with the sort of protocols and quantificational methods that make for SCIENCE in the sense in which it goes beyond just good old decent thinking. But decent thinking is all the reason one needs to take the kinds of evidence Jean adduces -- uncontrolled and anecdotal though it is -- seriously.

This "political correctness" stuff, however, is hooey. Jean seems to equate it with relativism -- the view that good, best and better are entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and not objective matters of fact. Such relativism is dangerous, and at bottom quite unintelligible. But it is neiher the same thing as "political correctness", whatever that is, other than a Limbaugh-esque vacuous slander word, nor what's at the bottom of whatever resistance the Lenco and Jean have encountered on their way to recognition. The resistors I am quit sure believe Hondas (objectively) better than Kias, Ellington (objectively) better than Brittney, Tiger woods (objectively) better than Mike Weir, and love (objectively) better than hate. It's just 35 years out-of-date, relatively cheap, discarded and DIY-ified record playback technology promoted by a, um, charsmatic cyber crank, shall we say, that they don't think is better than new, expensive, nearly universally embraced and lauded, 100% professionally engineered, produced and marketed record playback technology.

They need to have an open mind and an unbiased listen. Given the market forces at work here, that may be more than one can expect in most cases. But that's entirely understandable without appeal to sinister cultural forces of political correctness.

Anyway, I love my Lenco!

Happy listening!

Richard

Hi Richard, thanks for your support, as always, and your usual caveats - a HEALTHY form of HONEST debate - only underline your integrity, and the integrity of this thread, as other healthy and fascinating debates have done in the past. Thanks to all those who have debated, like gentleman, using honest evidence, logic and opinion (inevitable as we don't know everything) various issues with me in the past, to keep this thread vibrant and alive. For now, I'll leave the PC-Science and what constitutes acceptable evidence connection for another day, as the bigger Sturm und Drang (German for storm and drama) of this new higher-level exposure will concentrate our energies and attention.

Long ago, the first of my persistent opponents, that first Richard121 - driven like all the others by considerations of ego (i.e. the lowly and base envy) - had written the following over on "that" forum, which has set the template (especially on that particular forum, very interesting, perhaps I should re-analyze the original thread and write a book after all on the subject) for all attacks on me ever since:

"John,
You should go to Audiogon... there is a thread there "Building Hi-end tables cheap at Home Depot" that you will either laugh at, or get pissed, because the guy is convincing people to buy Lenco L75 tt and build a massive plinth (he claims this will cure the rumble problem).
The guy obviously wants center stage, sort of like a cult leader... he will not listen to any logic.
The thread is enormous... so many people are falling for this."

Now yet again: "Posted by rich121 ( A ) on February 18, 2004 at 20:55:43

Make sure that you post your thoughts.... many of these guys reading this, are buying these tt, I did also, and then... researched it, finding out how bad the rumble problem really is.
This guy is a "cult evangelist" wanna be...
Richard"

Now that the Lenco's Mightiness (and this is no hyperbole) is proven, then what of Richard's charge? It shows that what drove me all along was indeed, as I claimed, the Lenco's - and by extension the idlers the Lenco represents - amazing abilities/performance, which I wanted to share with the world (and effect TRUE progress). The charge that ego motivated/motivaTES me doesn't hold water, but it is an easy charge to make, as the stand I took - and proved - has made me somewhat of a public figure (in our small little analogue audiophile world), and the price of "fame" (as far as that goes) is unwarranted criticism.

The charge against me over on that - ho-hum - SAME forum, is that I am taking credit for what is not mine. While it is one thing to not toot one's horn (and one reason so many believe these charges is that I indeed kept silent and let Freek and Fred lead the charge over there and took no credit, so other than a few battles evidence is scarce on the ground), it is entirely another to stand idly by and watch others, driven by their petty ego issues/ambitions, try their damnedest to erase one completely from the record. So let's look at that posting once again and analyse it for what it implies: ""John, You should go to Audiogon... there is a thread there "Building Hi-end tables cheap at Home Depot" that you will either laugh at, or get pissed, because the guy is convincing people to buy Lenco L75 tt and build a massive plinth (he claims this will cure the rumble problem). The guy obviously wants center stage, sort of like a cult leader... he will not listen to any logic.
The thread is enormous... so many people are falling for this."

This shows that the denizens of that forum (who turned an originally enthusiastic participant of the Home Despot thread into a dedicated opponent) barely knew the Lenco/Idler/DIY phenomenon even existed. But thanks to Rich121 and various others who attacked me, and continue to attack me on that forum, the Lenco/Idler/DIY thing caught on and spread.

Long ago I had written a big thanks to that original opponent, who set the template for all the following attacks against me, as every time he attacked me in public forums the e-mails and interest grew due to the free publicity (and people LOVE the controversial, something these less-than-sharp adversaries cannot understand), and so, like fertilizer on plants (think of those Yahoos: "from whence they began to discharge their excrements on my head"), helped the Lenco phenomenon grow and grow. So, once again faced with a deluge of e-mails on the subject due to their attention being drawn to the 6moons article/Lenco phenomenon (and these e-mails ALWAYS represent only a tiny fraction of the actual awareness out there) I would once again like to thank the same crew for the free publicity! Thank You, oh Thank You so very much.

This same fertilizer is also largely responsible for the incredible heights the Lenco has now reached, so I would ask all Lenco participants to thank these Yahoos along with me, as I present a case in point. That SAME Richard (very busy boy) tried to discredit the entire effort on yet another issue, this time the issue of proper geometry. Over on that - YAWN - SAME forum, he had posted that no proper attention was being paid to either tonearm geometry/positioning or VTA (I was just plunking the Rega tonearm in the original hole, due to the Lenco's natural Mightiness it still sounded amazing as Palmnell's - Linn LP12 man - above posts testify). So, in order to save the Lenco/Idler/DIY Project from this attack, I pioneered the cutting off of the corner (which I no longer do, plinths were smaller then) and the creation of the removable armboard method for our DIY plinths. This actually represented a BIG advance in the Lenco performance and phenomenon, as, in addition to the increased sound quality due to proper positioning and VTA, there were no longer any roadblocks to the use of any tonearm anybody wished to try! And so began the Great Tonearm Frenzy as we all began to rediscover and mount a variety of vintage and current tonearms - from Decca Internationals and Maywares through Regas to Grahams, JMWs and various SMEs - to test them out with the Lenco, and also began the Great Cartridge Frenzy as various vintage cartridges were rediscovered and the whole Lenco/Idler/DIY phenomenon became Supercharged.

The same motivation - various forms of attack and unfair criticism - prodded us all to raise and raise the Lenco's performance: Direct Coupling, high mass, deep investigation of the Lenco Guts and how best to restore/tune them, proper lubricants, brilliant and inventive solutions as tey were showcased, and so on. So let us all, I beg you, thank these opponents for this richest of Fertilizers, who through the years - and STILL - motivate us all to reach for the sky. The latest reaching being the shipping of a Mighty Giant Glass-Reinforced, Direct-Coupled Lenco to Cyprus. I Thank You for the free publicity, I Thank You for energizing this thread, I Thank You for the ongoing opportunities for setting the record straight, I Thank You for the energy and for the motivation - the Fertilizer - which keeps this movement and phenomenon growing and growing, to who knows what point/level. Join me all, please in a BIG Thank You!

Now, freshly energized and motivated, time to start planning/actuating/building that emissary of our efforts, that plinth! Hope you're all having as much fun as I am fellow Lenco-ers :-)!!

Good luck Jean with your preparations for the almighty challenge...having just read Srajan's article in 6 moons, he sounds pretty open to the possibility of the ultimate enlightenment experience.
Ive been doing a few comparisons of my own this evening, prompted by one of my sons asking why I bothered with vinyl, weren't CD's easier?....sat him down next to me...started the same U2 track on CD and vinyl simultaneously-Helter Skelter-turned the volume up and then played him 30 seconds or so of the CD version, then let the mighty Lenco rip into it. As a follow up, played both versions of the guitar intro to Van Diemen's Land. When he heard the Lenco version, he looked at me and a grin spread across his face.....the mighty Lenco bringing through the rich warm textures of the notes, on Cd the sound was tinny, flat and made me want to yawn, the Lenco kept me entranced and enthralled at the beauty of the music.. But then he whipped out his iPod, started playing the film 'A hard day's night' saying "but your Lenco can't do this, can it?". I had to agree with him, but...

Jean, great writing and all too true.
As I am putting more miles on my PTPL (Peter's Top Plate Lenco) it continues to amaze, it really is very good!
So far everything that wasn't already great has turned out to be an artefact of something else, not of the PTPL. I have finally ordered a DL103 that I will try as soon as it arrives.
Keep up the good work!
Peter

I had my first listen to a mighty Lenco on Saturday, playing my own records on a system that is otherwise foreign to me. I was floored by the HUGE soundstage, fabulous sense of depth and pace, and yes bass response in spades. Rumble? What rumble? As Jean knows, I am putting my money where my mouth is by ordering a table. So now that I am about to join this exclusive club, can I ask if any owners of Lencos out of Jean's shop are using low output moving coil cartridges on their tables? If so, what are the results compared to the same or similar cartridges used on high quality belt-drive tables? Thanks.