Of the 3 subs the OP is looking at under his $600 budget, the Earthquake is an absolute beast compared to the others. I owned a couple of those before and that's a lot of subwoofer for $600.
Best multi-purpose subwoofer
Best multi-purpose subwoofer - meaning it fulfills my pursuit for audiophile 2 channel listening and my home theater needs. I have a large TV room 22x22x8 (LxDxH) with floor standing Von Schweikerts VR4 speakers. Room is used both for dedicated 2 channel listening as well as home theater. Unfortunately the design of the room is not the best as it has glass on one side (leading to the backyard) and laundry room behind (meaning its also the family room). Currently I have a 8 inch NHT SW1 old subwoofer which needs an upgrade. The maximum dimensions I can afford on a subwoofer is 15x18x20 (LxDxH).
As mentioned I want to be able to connect a High Level Input (for 2 channel) and .LFE for HT - so the subwoofer will need to have both. Grace for dedicated listening as well as power for HT. The only time I would consider a larger subwoofer is if it has wireless capabilities so I can place it anywhere in the room.
Any suggestions on which subwoofer may work best for me?
As mentioned I want to be able to connect a High Level Input (for 2 channel) and .LFE for HT - so the subwoofer will need to have both. Grace for dedicated listening as well as power for HT. The only time I would consider a larger subwoofer is if it has wireless capabilities so I can place it anywhere in the room.
Any suggestions on which subwoofer may work best for me?
74 responses Add your response
I have had 5 different SVS subs, none of which are still here. I had one of very expensive Paradigm subs which was too boomy for me, so it's gone. The room I am in is 30x30 with an 18 foot high vaulted ceiling, a mezzanine level overhead walk way, stone under it and glass on the opposite wall. The other walls are made up of cabinets, stereo gear, book shelves.... its a mix of everything, but for some reason, things just work well for 2 channel stereo which is my main use. I am currently using three subs: Axiom Audio EP800, EP500 and a Bryston Model T sub. The Bryston is made for them by Axiom too. Honestly, there is no comparison between the Axiom products and any of the SVS subs I used including their flagship Ultra SB16. Hands down the Axioms are far more powerful, smooth and just plain musical. For your sized sub required, I'd suggest the EP500. And pay no attention to the power ratings on subs. The SVS's were rated at some huge number of watts, but after two of them burned out and I took them apart to inspect; all I can say is the amps are in my opinion too light. The Axiom amps which are rated at a much more conservative output have monster linear toroid power supplies.... the dynamic head room is immense and you cannot clip these drivers. Check them out, I think you will be very happy. |
I just found this thread; I don’t check in on Audiogon as often as I should. By far most of my activity is in prosound. I’m the guy who makes the Swarm. @noble100 , thank you very much for your enthusiasm and excellent explanations. I would like to comment on something posted by batman1971: "The storm is just 4 10 inch passive subs running off one 1000 watt amp. The home theater guys were introduced to the idea of four subs intelligently distributed by Earl Geddes and Todd Welti (independently of one another). In the Swarm, I’m using Earl’s idea with his permission. My guess is that this idea caught on faster among home theater enthusiasts for three reasons: 1. It gives good results over a wider listening area than one or two larger equalized subs. 2. High-end HT calls for high output at low frequencies anyway, so using multiple subs to achieve that may already be called for. 3. High-end audio guys are generally more focused on the excellence of individual components, so a single uber-sub with exotic woofer technology having extreme excursion capability driven by a high-end amplifier is a lot more "sexy" than four little subs driven by a Parts Express amp. (Just for the record, I happen to think that shelf-mounted Parts Express amp, the SA-1000, is very good for the money. And the combined motor strength of my four 10" woofers compares favorably to any single home audio woofer on the Data-Bass website as of a couple of years ago, though they were surpassed by the 21" B&C prosound woofer with the 1 ohm voice coil.) As for price, I have no problem whatsoever with people finding a less expensive solution. Here are a couple of things that might help you get good results: Imo a good "target curve" for a subwoofer is -3 dB per octave across the bass region, say from 80 Hz down to 20 Hz. This is the approximate inverse of "typical" room gain from boundary reinforcement, which will of course vary quite a bit from one room to another - my point being, try to take room gain into account, giving you one less thing to have to "fix" later on. Also, you want a fairly steep low-pass filter for a distributed multisub system, especially for any subs that will be closer to the listener than the main speakers. You don’t want audible upper bass/lower midrange energy leaking through those nearby subs and giving away their locations, as that’s distracting. I wish I knew how to do a far less expensive Swarm that only traded off max SPL capability and maybe some low-end extension, but I simply do not have the economies of scale to do so. The labor to build four smaller boxes is about the same as the labor to build the boxes I use, and the savings in material cost would be minor. It is much less expensive to build one big box than to build four small ones. One possible way to do a "DIY budget Swarm" would be, four .75 cubic foot Parts Express knock-down sealed subwoofer cabinet kits; four 8" Dayton Audio woofers; and one SA-1000 amplifier. For those who already have a sub or two, you can add some more, and they don't have to all match. For those with fewer budget constraints, imo four Rhythmics would be mighty sweet. One final note on EQ: A good distributed multi-sub system significantly reduces the frequency response variation from one location to another within the room, such that EQ is much more likely to make a global (thoughout-the-room) improvement instead of merely a local one. Duke |
I have 3 ENTEC subwoofers in one system. I have them set up as a stereo pair and one in the center as a summed channel. Since reading this thread I decided to take the center one and place it off to the extreme one side and at a 90 degree angle to my stereo pair. Well I'll be damned if it didn't make the whole stereo sound more defined. I can see where the Audio Kinesis Swarm concept is so well liked by TAS. |
Kink56 wrote: "Well I’ll be damned if it didn’t make the whole stereo sound more defined." Nice job! Improved bass smoothness often pays dividends beyond what our intuition would lead us to expect. Some of this is predicted by the Fletcher-Munsen curves, which bunch up south of 100 Hz. This indicates that the ear has a heightened sensitivity to variations in SPL at low frequencies, as a 3 dB difference at 40 Hz is perceptually comparable to a 6 dB difference at 1 kHz. On the other hand the ear has poor time-domain resolution at low frequencies, so differences in arrival time in the bass region are usually imperceptible. This is good news for the distributed multisub approach. But I cannot explain the subjective improvement well above the bass region that many people report after making improvements in their subwoofer systems. I hear it too, but until I can offer a plausible explanation my Ministry of Propaganda will focus on other things. Duke |
I don't use subs with my main listening system as my speakers are 3 db down at 20 hz, but I do augment bass for video use and run a pair of the Hsu VTF15H Mk 2 for home theatre use, and agree that they are excellent. Hard to get more bang for your buck than that. Strongly suggest that those who can afford it get a matched pair rather than a single. |
Duke/Audio Kinesis, Thank you for your unexpected but very informative and interesting contributions to this thread. I think many have the somewhat mistaken belief that attaining good in-room bass response is simply a matter of using 1 or 2 subs of a particular, or 'right', brand and model in their systems. My experience is that 1 or 2 good subs can achieve good bass response at one specific sweet spot in most rooms but this results in inconsistent bass response throughout the remainder of the room, heard at various specific spots in the room as bass peaks, nulls and even bass absence. For those unconcerned with good bass response being restricted to a specific sweet spot, I think 1 or 2 subs properly located can be a satisfying solution. The distributed bass array concept of 4 subs properly positioned definitely has the advantage of producing very good bass response throughout the entire room for those that require it. However, I've noticed other benefits to the bass quality that were unexpected that I'm theorizing are only possible due to there being 4 subs dispersed throughout the room and their cumulative affect. My best description is the bass in my room became more agile or flexible in the sense it can faithfully reproduce whatever bass is dictated by the source material, whether it's music or HT. It can be finely detailed on music that allows for the easy identifying of the different bass instruments being played, following the separate bass lines and also the small changes in pitch, tone and volume of each instrument. The bass can also be powerful and delivered with sudden impact which helps convey the large dynamics of live music and the low frequency effects on HT. My main point is that a distributed bass array system, whether the Swarm or a custom setup, has more benefits than just good bass response throughout the entire room, it also elevates the quality of that bass to state of the art. I've never been able to achieve this level of bass quality in my system with 1 or 2 subs. Tim |
Thank you very much Tim. I find your posts quite educational, as I think you have more real-world experience than I do, and you have paid very close attention to your experiences. And you write very well! I think a good distributed multisub setup is pretty effective at largely removing the room’s signature in the bass region, which is normally superimposed atop all of our recordings. We don’t realize what has been happening until it’s gone. Duke |
Thank you Tim and Duke, and everyone else who has go graciously taken the time out to write and educate. There is a lot to this subject just like any other piece of equipment in the audio chain, and to me that is where the most fun is being an audiophile. In regards to subwoofers there is no debate that multiple subs are better, but to choose one that matches with your room acoustics, and your R/L speakers is equally important. I believe for HT it makes the task a little easy, but for dedicated 2 channel critical listening it gets tough. How well does the subwoofer pair with your R/L speakers cross overs will depend on how well and smoothly it rolls off, bringing the mids and low to life. For my Von Schweikerts VR4 that hit 20Hz comfortably and smoothly, it’s really difficult to pair a good subwoofer. The only way is to audition - but it’s really a hassle to ship the product back every time. Again this is a journey and definitely I am just now in the beginning stages (currently own a NHT SW1 8 inch sub powered by a SA1 mono amplifier). I have owned the sub since 1998 and it’s time to upgrade - mostly for 2 channel listening. |
Duke Lejeun: " Thank you very much Tim. I find your posts quite educational, as I think you have more real-world experience than I do, and you have paid very close attention to your experiences. And you write very well! " Hi Duke, Thanks for the kind words. I've done quite a bit of research on low bass room acoustics, in-room behavior of the longer bass sound waves and sub woofers in general. But I don't consider myself an expert, just an enthusiast who has learned enough to be dangerous. My main motivation was trying to supplement the less than stellar bass produced from my main speakers, a pair of Magnepan 2.7QR 6 x 2 ft. panels that bottom out at 37Hz. These speakers have excellent mid-range and treble response but I knew my system needed better low bass response. I also knew that integrating subs with electrostatic and planar speakers seamlessly was considered difficult by many. I began my journey searching for good bass response by using a single large M&K passive sub with a 12" driver powered by a separate class AB 150 watt amp.and later added a 2nd 10" self-powered sub. I'd describe the bass quality of both of these initial tests as better suited for HT than music. It was relatively easy to position the sub and subs so that the bass sounded best at my listening position. After adding the 2nd sub, I perceived the bass as more detailed and smoother but it continued to seem disconnected and not well integrated with my main speakers on music. Since buying and properly installing the AK Debra bass system, I now consider my journey searching for good bass response completed. I'm not going to describe again how well the distributed bass array concept, whether the AK Swarm, AK Debra or a custom setup, actually works but instead just state I now consider my system's bass response for both music and HT as state of the art. I believe this concept will work equally well in any room, with any speakers and that any skeptic would be convinced once they auditioned a properly setup system. My sole intention is just to share the word about an exceptional solution. Tim |
Hi ghulamr, You already have a very good system with high quality speakers that can reproduce very deep bass well. Can you tell me exactly what qualities you'd like to improve on the bass of your system? I just read a very good review on your Von Shwiekert VR4 MKII speakers on Dagogo.com. In the review, he mentions bi-amping them using a pair of class D 200 watt Channel Island D-200 mono blocks on the bass modules with very good results. The D-200 monos are no longer made but there are many very good high powered class D amps that could be used instead. Class D amps are often used to drive subs because they're small, powerful,have low very low levels of distortion, have very high damping factors and are relatively less expensive. Would you prefer to try this out before sub woofers? Here's a link to the Dagogo review: www.dagogo.com/channel-island-audio-plc-1-d-200-class-d-monoblock-amplifiers-and-xdc-2-ac-enhancing-... If not, I think you have 2 options for setting up a distributed bass array system in your room: Opt#1- Custom DBA: Use your existing pair of VR4 bass modules as sub#1 and sub#2 of the 4 subs required. This option has 2 variations since you would need to buy either A. 2 passive subs of your choice as sub#3 and #4 and the Dayton SA-1000 class AB 1KW amp used by the Swarm ($419 at Parts Express) or a class D 4 ch amp to drive all 4. Or, B. 2 amplified subs of your choice as sub#3 and #4 and either keep your current setup of not bi-amping your VR4s or biamp them if you'd like. Opt#2- AK Swarm or Debra DBA: Keep your existing system as is and just buy and add the Swarm or Debra complete system with 4 subs and the class AB amp to drive them. No matter which option you choose, I can help you with the proper setup procedure and any additional subs or amps you'd need. Opt#2, since it would actually consist of 6 subs in your room- the 4 Swarm subs plus the 2 VR4 bass modules) would likely provide the best quality bass and most bass (but controllable with the overall system volume control on the Swarm amp). Please let me know your thoughts on this and removing the AV7005 from your system. Tim |
Hi Tim, sorry for the super late response. I was on vacation with family. Want to make sure I don’t ignore a fellow audiophile, specially when you have been so helpful. Well good new is - I purchased a JL Audio fathom f112 sub just last night. It is in immaculate condition and I paid $1200 for it. It just got back from JL Phoenix service center with a complete service too. Its a beast to unpack - but could not wait to do so. Hooked up without much calibration to my benchmark DAC/preamp and my oh my. All I can say is I was missing so much in my 2 channel listening? I had not idea. I am hearing low octave details that were not there before and I think the Von Schweikerts have opened up more 60 Hz and up. I want to take this next week to really take the time to dial in the sub for both 2 channel and HT. As for using OPPO as an HT processor compared to Marantz - I had played around a lot with that idea and did a lot of serious comparisons. For HT I think using Ausessy calibration setup really gives an upper hand to Marantz. Movies really have that slam and dynamism and open theater sound using the Marantz with Audessy compared to OPPO. I am keeping my OPPO though for network use, reading my flac files from HD and de-embedding the HDMI from Apple TV for my digital Apple Music. Very happy with that set up driven through the benchmark DAC/preamp. |
Hello guhlamr, Congratulations, the JL Audio fathom f112 sub is an excellent choice. It's heavy at 115 lbs, solid, has a powerful class D amp, comes with a mic and room correction and the 12" driver should be very good for music and ht. Plus at $1,200, you got a great deal. Good job. For setup, I'd still suggest placing it at your listening seat, playing the demo mode on the JL and walking around your room perimeter to find the best spot to locate it. The bass will probably sound exaggerated in the corners when you do this walk around. Once this is done, you can run the auto room correction to fine tune the bass response at your listening position even further. The last step is finding the right crossover frequency that works well for music and ht. My suggestion is to set this frequency as low as possible while still sounding good to you. Remember, the sub is there to provide good bass impact when the content calls for it, the goal is not to constantly hear it. This is what is meant by 'seamless integration' with your main speakers. Enjoy, Tim |
guhlamr and gillatgh, While your room (22x22x8) is larger than gillatgh’s room (15x22x8) and you’re both using only a single high quality sub, you’ll both find that you can optimize bass response at a single position (your chosen listening position) in your rooms provided the sub is properly positioned within the room in relation to your listening position. I detailed the procedure for properly locating a single sub in my last post. The compromise of using only 1 sub in a room is that bass response will be poor at numerous other locations in the room. This will be obvious by just walking around the room after optimizing the bass at your listening seat. You’ll notice that at various spots in the room the bass will sound exaggerated, attenuated and even nonexistent. These spots of poor bass are the result of ’Bass Modes’ existing at these spots in the room. Bass modes occur because bass sound waves launched from a sub are very long (a 30Hz sound wave is 37.66 ft long, a 20Hz wave is 56.5 ft long) and these long waves continue to reflect or bounce off room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) until they run out of energy. The points where these reflected bass sound waves meet or collide are called bass modes. When 2 sound waves reinforce each other, the bass will be perceived as exaggerated. When 2 sound waves meet at various angles, the bass is perceived as attenuated and when 2 sound waves meet or collide head on, the bass is perceived as totally absent since the 2 waves cancelled each other out resulting in what is termed a ’Standing Wave’. As I’ve stated before, the only currently known method of attaining very good bass response throughout an entire room is to deploy what is called a ’Distributed Bass Array System’. The DBA system is a scientifically proven method (developed by 2 doctors of acoustical engineering, Earl Geddes and Floyd O’Toole) that consists of 4 subs strategically positioned in a room that is exceptionally effective in significantly reducing the number of bass modes in any given room. An additional benefit of the JL f112 sub is that it’s fairly simple to add additional JL subs if you ever wanted to. The existing sub is termed the ’Master’ and an additional JL sub is called a ’Slave’. Only a single cable is required for connecting the slave to the master. Multiple slave subs can be connected connecting them with a single cable in a daisy chain method and the master recognizes all attached subs as a single bass system. So, you both currently have very good bass response at your listening position and have the option to incrementally improve that bass response by adding properly positioned subs. If you decide to deploy a DBA, you’ll attain state of the art bass response throughout your entire room and likely be able to charge admission for music or ht. Enjoy, Tim . |
@ghulamr -- I believe you made a sensible choice with the JL Audio F112. Never heard/felt it, but from what I’ve read it’s a very powerful and accurate sub that extends below 20Hz, so something along the lines of REL-territory musicality with the added bonus of brute force and infrasonic capabilities, the latter of which adds another dimension/experience layer to Blu-ray/UHD films. I used a single SVS SB16-Ultra for a year and a half, a sub I believe compares in performance to the F112 rather closely, and placed between my main speakers it integrated very well for both music and Home Theater duties. I had it low-passed at 61-62Hz/24dB with the mains running full range. As of late though I’ve converted to a pair of (tapped horn) subs, and experimenting with dual placement has come up with some interesting findings. One option (in variations) has been to have one sub between the main speakers and the other behind the listening position against the rear wall (optionally in a corner), configured in mono with a cross-over to the mains somewhere between 80-100Hz - a rather successful setting with good pressurization and fairly flat/smooth response. Placing them instead along the side walls fed with a stereo signal (digital sources maintain stereo all the way down in the lowest bass, insofar they’re mixed in stereo, whereas LP’s are monaural below 100Hz regardless) in a symmetrical configuration to the mains has the bass from the subs "latch on" to the mains in a distinctly more natural and very seamless fashion compared to the front/rear option and single front/center placed SVS, not least making for an even more coherent presentation. I think the primary factor to be aware of here is placing dual subs symmetrically in relation to the main speakers (making phase/delay adjustment much easier, along with gain), and even having a true stereo signal for better ambient reproduction. The latter aspect here may be debated due to bass being less directional below some 80Hz, and while my subs are crossed between 80-100Hz/48dB (not yet settled) to be more directionally "visible," I find the bass-being-omnidirectional claim too categorial in not factoring in the importance of ambient information aided via a stereo signal, below 80Hz as well. So, do consider a second F112 in your setup, for several reasons; you’ll have ~6dB more headroom as well and double the air radiation area. In the meantime enjoy your new acquisition and integrating it with your mains and acoustics. |
phusis: "I find the bass-being-omnidirectional claim too categorial in not factoring in the importance of ambient information aided via a stereo signal, below 80Hz as well." Hello phusis, I partially agree with your statement but, based on my experience, I think you have the cause and effect reversed. I know this is a subtle difference but I believe it’s important so I’ll do my best to explain. First, I believe bass below about 80Hz is omnidirectional (that is, humans cannot perceive exactly where the bass sound is coming from.) Whether you configure 2 subs in a stereo or mono configuration, there is no ambient information existing on bass from about 80Hz and lower. However, musical signals at or above about 80Hz are directional (that is, humans can perceive exactly where these sounds are coming from.) I think the critical factor in determining exactly where bass sounds are coming from are the harmonics of the bass notes. For example, a fundamental bass note at 40Hz will produce harmonics at 80, 120, 160, 200, etc. Hz. Once these harmonics exceed about 80Hz, humans can perceive exactly where the sound is coming from. At this point, I think our brains take over and associate the multiple harmonics with the 40Hz fundamental note and the location it’s coming from. So, I believe there is important bass ambient information aided via a stereo signal but none below 80Hz. Fundamental bass notes below about 80Hz are omnidirectional but the bass note’s fundamentals above about 80Hz are directional and are clues to where the fundamental bass note is coming from. I believe the above based on my configuration and setup of my own system. I think the bass is the hardest to get right in any room/system so I do that first. I use 4 subs (each is 28"hx12"dx14"w and weighs 40 lbs) all run in mono and powered by a separate 1K watt class AB amp with the cutoff frequency set at 50Hz. My room is 23’x16’x8’. My hdtv, system rack and components are located and centered along the front 16’ wall. My listening chair is located and centered along the opposite rear 16’ wall. I optimize the bass at my listening seat by playing music containing good and repetitive bass, placing sub#1 at my seat and walking around the perimeter of my room in a counter-clockwise direction beginning at the front right corner of my room. I walk slowly along the front 16’ wall until I find the exact spot that the bass sounds best to me. Once determined, I relocate sub#1 to that exact position. I then place sub#2 at my seat and continue walking slowly from sub#1 until the bass sounds best to me. Once determined, I relocate sub#2 to that exact position. This process is sequentially followed until all 4 subs are optimally positioned. Last, I sit in my listening seat, replay the music with good bass and verify that the bass sounds very good. It’s important to mention that while the bass sounds exceptionally good at this point, I could not determine where the bass was coming from even though there was a sub on each 23’ wall with my listening seat in the middle of the rear 16’ wall between them and 2 subs located along the front 16’ wall. Next, I optimally position my main L+R Magnepan 2.7QR panels along the front 16’ wall, about 8’ apart and each about 4’ away from this wall into the room, in relation to my listening seat and playing full range but rated bass down to only 37Hz. Replaying the same music now heard in full range, everything becomes coherent and well integrated. There is a wide and dep soundstage illusion. My main point being, with the benefit of now hearing the bass harmonics above about 80Hz, I could now determine where the instruments producing the deep bass notes below about 80Hz were coming from within this soundstage illusion. I believe hearing the deep bass harmonics above 80 Hz enables this no matter how many subs are used in a system. Sorry this was so long but I find this a difficult concept to explain without a lot of detail. I hope I was successful. Tim |
If you care to learn a bit Dr Geddes PDF paper on multiple subwoofers https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxgUOGOB5HbfR0JTRF9XZjkyUms/view |
I am really enjoying my f112 sub. Dialed in for both 2 channel and HT the unit sounds amazing. Really solid state of the art subwoofer. Question is - does using good quality power cable, RCA cable and XLR cable connecting to the subwoofer make a difference? I really don't want to break my bank and tick off my wife - so looking for budget yet good quality cables - maybe used? Currently using whatever I had lying around my house, cheap Monoprice stuff. |
Thx for the thread, pals. I'm trying to choose a subwoofer for $500 max from this list. What do you think about it? Thx in advance Frank |