Aloha Kana.... I told you Eldartford..... ;D |
It is interesting to note that while the Tact did win a stereotimes award, the reviewer preferred the sound using the amp's ANALOG inputs drived by an external Zanden tube DAC!
This direct digital thing is not always a shoe-in for ultimate sound.
I'm sure many Tact users are very happy with the digital inputs. Just making an observation what one reviewer foun d after 3 months of use. |
Muralman1...Long ago Rolls Royce could truthfully say "The Best Car in the World". Although other vehicles made the Rolls obsolete, and quality went to pot, people who had invested their money and reputation in owning a Rolls refused to admit that it no longer lived up to its sales slogan, and they went right on buying them. No: I don't expect the exotic high end amp owners to run out and buy an $800 ProSound amp. But I do think it's a good thing that people who have less than a grand to spend on an amp can have close to SOTA performance. |
Loudandclear- I've been to CP's home and heard his TacT gear. He stopped using the Zanden tube DAC months ago after some cable/power supply improvements.
He does use a Apogee Big Ben processor to reduce jitter from his transport.
Once you get noise under control, a TacT system doesn't need any tubes in the circuit path. If you have a moment,
take a look at my ST article on digital tweaking. ;-) |
Muralman,
Looking at the apogee users site, it would be easy to conclude you have a financial intrest in the H2O amps. This may not be the case but I beleive it would behhove you to clarify your realationship with H2O |
The creator of the H2O is Henry Ho. Henry is a good friend of mine, though we live a continent apart. I had his fine class A monoblocks for a time. Henry tutored me through several component changes. I could say, I am returning the favor as a good friend. It's easy though, and self serving. I have heard many amps, and I have yet to hear the equal of the H2O at any price. Henry's amp will be the least expensive of my recent amp purchases. That is my reward. That, and the satisfaction of seeing a friend do good.
Henry is a lone entrepreneur now. He is presently pulling a pool of experts around him, to facilitate a quick amp turn around. My job of chief cheer leader isn't done yet. I will be giving a proper review of my system here within a couple of weeks.
Over time, I have made a lot of noise over other components, and took some flack for that too. It bothers me none. I can see how someone might misconstrue my enthusiasm for salesmanship.
I encourage any amp challenge to the H2O. So far well reviewed digital amps such as the eAR, PS Audio, Rowland, and Evo Gen2, have been compared, not to mention a good number of conventional amps. Owners of these amps have been voting unanimously with their check books for the H2O. |
Muralman, given that you are H2Os "chief cheer leader" and the designer's good friend, exactly what is the difference between you soon to come review of the amplifier and ad copy from H2O?
Also, you have repeatedly stated that owners of other digital amps are switching to H2O, please provide proof. You seem to indicate that as a lone entrepreneur Mr. Ho is having trouble getting his orders filled. Can you provide data as to how many of his amps have actually been sold? |
Hello fellows!
I have to chime in here in support of Henry.
I have had several long conversations and have exchanged e-mails with Henry. He is a true class act and a very much stand up gentleman. He is an engineer at heart and adheres to very solid business ethics. Let's give him a chance to prove his skills. The first several of his amps are out their right now (mainly in the hands on Apogee owners) and getting huge accolades. Yes, one guy has replaced his Evo-4's and PSAudio HCA's he had in for comparison purposes.
Henry will have a another batch of ten amps or so out in several weeks. They are all spoken for. One has my name on it.
Muralman obviously has liked what he has heard. In a month or so, there should be a few others reporting back. Wait and see. |
Onhy61, I meant my self designation to be taken tongue firmly in cheek. I have no status with the budding H2O company, none at all. I love this amp. I know Henry, and like Loudandclear says, he is a class act.
I have had in my possession a traveling H2O. In a couple days I will have monos I ordered. I will take pictures, and give my opinion. Nobody has to believe a word I say. There will be plenty others to follow. I am riding the crest of a wave.
H2O is a startup company. It isn't even in full production. Actually, Henry has asked me to cool the fireworks for the time being, until amp production gets up to full speed. |
I certainly wish I had the definitive answer to this question. Don't think there is one. It's all subjective. Unless of course, we all buy the same preamps, spekers, and sources.
If all the manufacturers or dealers were so confident as to having the "best", they should all put their money where their mouth is, in the product they want us to buy. Of course without the belief they can make the better "mousetrap", it would perbably be a rather bleak array of things to choose from. It ought to be a "Take it home - try it out - doesn't matdch well with your system?" "Bring it back and we'll try something else."
Even if you are fortunate enough to find a dealer that works with you, they lock up the money, and downgrading or reverting back a step is usually not acceptagle practice, only going up, seems to be. Don't get me wrong, I do understand business is business. I just believe if a product is truly well made and a great preformer, it ought to be that in your home, not just the showroom. Experimentation is the only answer I've yet to find worthwhile. Tough deal. Satisfy the customer, or sell the product? Satisfy the customer, they may tell a few of their friends, dis one and they tell people they don't even know! I'm on my third amp - or about to be, this time a Mcintosh. Sony didn't have the juice, Krell had the juice, but seemed a bit impersonal, the Mac sounds about right, and has more power, another 100 watts, to 350. I like what power does with speakers. Given the choice I'll go with less effecient speakers and power above 250 watts every time. There is no "magic bullet" in audioland. Just ears and dollars, and if you don't use the ears, you'll lose a lot of dollars. Valves, MOS-FETS,chips, micro processors, servos,Jesus! I threw the specs sheet away long ago. Certain designs indicate lonbgevity, some stability, others try to emmulate. The path I stumbled across recently was: "You know, speaker makers use amps to drive their speakers." Why not find out what THEY use. Seems practical, at least for a starting point, as well as providing insight to the developers train of thought. Past this point it all gets murky. Want to find the best solid state amp for you? Win the lottery, knock off your rich relative, and have at it! Or buy what you have confidence in and what your ears tell you they like. Sound is fascinating. good sound is expensive. great sound is complex, and expensive. No one has THE answer for what is best. Just THEIR answer. Being satisfied with waht I can afford, at least for me, is the secret. So I resist the urge to listen to things I can not afford. Simple. Simple is always best. Look at PUSH-PULL amps. Java man probalbly had one in his cave, and they are stil around. Mono blocks with outboard power supplies. right! I'll run down and grab six or seven tomorrow. the onlyu constant here is the constant onslaught of magazines whose sole direction is to sell the products they review. No products to review, no magazine to sell. Funny how that works. don't believe me, look at all the reviews that say the item just flat sucks. There aren't any. A precious few can buy the precious things. Good for them. I am fortunate enough to have enough respect for music that I have dedicated myself to buying in the realm just past that of "Mass media audio". Good for me. As fickle as that area is, changing twice a year or so, I've about given up on the "who's who" thing. Just a couple more pieces.... and I'm done, for good or ill. . . . well maybe. |
Any toughts on the new Audio Research digital amp? |
The AResearch is based on the tripath chipset.
A couple dealers I spoke to seemed to be lukewarm (maybe even cool) about the Amp.
Comments were that it was on the cool/lean side of neutral and was even a bit bright out of the box.
Of course synergy is always key.
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Well, well, well..it's been sometime since I've done any posting but I can't resist this thread as this new crop of amps, IMHO, represent the future.
Sorry for the length of this posting but the ICEH20 amp is a significant product IMHO.
Being an Apogee owner (Mini Grands, Studio Grands and now Divas...still have them all) I'm always on the hunt for amps that can deliver current into their impedance from hell loads (actually they are not all THAT bad...except the Diva tweeter...9 ohms). I bi and tri amp my Apogees, driving the ribbons and bass panels directly, bypassing those lousy, stinking, awful, rotten, no good, power sucking, grainy, lower than a snakes belly...and bad passive x-overs. The ribbons are incredibly revealing of everything that goes on in front of them and, in particular, the mating amps. ANY grain or other active aberration and the amp is history. I can stand amps that hide detail, but amps that add stuff (and so far, tubes have been the biggest offenders)have a short residence in my system. I also use a Tact 2.2X (sometimes in conjunction with my DBX DriveRack PA) to set my target response curves and give the drivers the proper delays. This is also the future...big time!
The amps I've always come back to have been my Reference Line Silver Signatures with the high current outboard power supplies. I've tried for several years to dislodge them from my system (they do weigh in at over 140 pounds each)using other very fine amps but none have been as open or artifact free as these guys and they love diving the big Aps. Their only disadvantages are their size and heat/power draw (4-6 channels each drawing over 400 watts at idle and yes I've got 3-30 amp circuits for these pigs). Then I saw that Audio Advisor was selling their demo HCA-2s for a very attractive price. I took the plunge and bought a pair. Well right out of the box, stone cold they sounded great! Really turned my head. Very open and dynamic. They immediately got my right foot tapping to the music, even at low listening levels. I still preferred my RL amps as the HCA-2's came across a bit lean in the context of the Divas but were good matches for the Studio & Mini Grands. Then I spied a couple of Bel Canto EV0-4 gen II's for sale and grabbed them. Wow even better than the HCA-2. Still very open but fuller sounding, and a really neat package. Tonally and soundstage wise, they were sonic clones of the RL amps. Still not quite as open and just a tad laid back with a little less boogie.
Then Henry Ho let it drop on the Apogee site that he was starting to produce an amp based upon one of the ICE modules. Henry has been building amps for years and is a long time member of the Apogee Forum. His sonic priorities and taste in amps are in exact lock step with mine. Deep class a bias (I mean DEEP class A all the way to clipping into at least 4 ohms), at lot of attention to huge well-made power supplies and simple, well executed topologies. He's also familiar with the RL amps and quite complimentary of their sonics & design. So when he said the prototype amps turned his head away from his Class A amps and could easily drive his Scintillas, I paid attention. Based upon the encouragement of his friends and fellow forum members, he sent the prototype around the country for audition and said he would make "production quality" versions for forum members. Well, I took another plunge, send in a $2000 deposit on two stereo units. About 6 weeks later, they arrived, well packed on my door step. No owners manual or fancy literature yet, but hey it's a simple power amp and we've all been around the block.
Well again, and this is a common theme with these amps, stone cold, brand new, right out of the box they were stunning! The first thing I noticed right away was their incredible openness. Next thing that got my attention was the MUSIC. It took center stage as opposed to the sound. We've all heard pretty sounding amps but just could not get into the music. We have also heard amps that boogied but irritated at the same time. Well like the RL amps, the ICEH20 amps just get the hell out of the way..period. Making direct comparisons to the EVo-4 Gen II was telling. I thought the EVO's were essentially grain free. Well comparisons with the ICEH20's showed that not to be the case. A small but quite perceptible gauss came over the music when switching from the ICEH20's.
This is a great, artifact free amp. I've yet to make the comparison to the RL amps but I've a feeling I've found the right crowbar.
These are simple black boxes with a single blue LED on the front. Back panel is wide open with two sets of binding posts for each channel, balanced as well as single ended inputs and a central power cord receptacle. Simple and well executed. They weigh in at around 45 pounds each. Output impedance is under .1 ohms as far as I can tell. DC offset is low at under 10 MV. There are no turn on/off transients to slap my ribbons around and they will tolerate the small amount of DC that my DBX DriveRack sources (My RL amps on the other hand are TRUE DC coupled and amplify the shit out of it). They are extremely quite.
They are possibly the finest, most artifact free amp I've owned. They have even caught the attention, and ire, of Peter the Great (in his own mind anyway)of Acoustic Reality.
I'm awaiting shipment of my third stereo unit. The EV0's will be for sale as soon as it arrives (they are doing bass duties right now) |
1953- You use a TacT RCS 2.2X, has its' power supply been upgrade? If not you're missing out on a very large performance improvement. Have you tried the TacT
2150 amps? I have a friend who also uses Apogee speakers
with a 2.2X. His lightly modified 2150 drives the Apogee without any problems. He has heard the H20 prototype on his system and preferred the 2150. TacT is also working on a more powerful version of their all digital amp.
I agree with you that this new crop of amps represents the future direction of audio. |
Hey Kana813. Yeah a chum on the forum keeps bugging me about the power supply & Black Gate upgrades. Unfortunately, the 2.2X is not mine but on loan from a friend. It's an amazing piece though and once you crack its user interface it's straight forward to use. I'm saving my doe for the TCS MKII as I need 8 channels...for my quad amped Divas of course. The 2.2X let me see (and hear)how Apogee completely hosed up the application of the single element ribbon tweeter on the Diva via the passive x-over but also allowed me to hear what a stunning product the Diva can be when the ribbons are properly driven directly. I imagine Maggies would respond in a very similar fashion.
Also hear you about an all Tact system. I'm building towards that but right now the ICEH20's are a steal. For $2000 brand new I can't think of a better sounding amp right now also frees up the music so well. The production versions sound noticably better than the prototype. I've a feeling in the context of a "normal" system,(read non-Tact based)the ICEH20 would be the superior product, IMHO. |
Kana, that was a prototype we begged for to be passed about to Apogee members despite it being premature. We didn't mean for it's performance to be made public. I'm sure you were told it was a prototype amp. Though it is similar to the production model in capacitance, transformer, and power supply, it lacked the filters, fast diodes, and quality parts of the production model.
The prototype is still a class above any solid state amp I've heard including the TacT. The H2O is an analogue amp, and I don't care how much tweaking you do to the Tact it is still a digital switcher. I know your friend, and I know his preferences. I don't share them. The sound differences between the two are dry and analytical for the TacT, compared to natural and true to life for the H2O.
I have the H2O monos now, and it, with the production improvements I mentioned, is a cut above the prototype, and unapproachable by TacT, even with a thousand dollars upgrades.
Now, if only I can get a pre-amp of equal stature. |
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1953- I agree with you, for $2K the H2O sounds very interesting. I just think, for someone who running a two channel rig, the TacT's ability to eliminate the preamp,
DAC and extra cables are worth the extra $900.
Muralman1- first, I said the amp our friend heard was a prototype, and it was our same friend that suggested the
use of high speed diodes and better parts to Henry, after
he heard what these improvement did in his TacT system.
I know you're excited about the H20, but with the mods I've done on the TacT amps, they're not "dry and analytical."
You know my friend, but you don't know me. I'm told you're a really great guy, but please don't made unsupported statement like "unapproachable by TacT, even with a thousand dollars upgrades," unless you've heard a tweaked out TacT system like mine or Mr.Perry's.
The mods don't cost "thousand dollars," try a $100.
worth of parts applied in the right area, some electronics knowledge and skill.
I'm not your enemy man. I want to see other digital amps come to market and push the development process of this new technolgy into high gear.
As I told you, I'd be happy to lend an ear and my mana'o
to the H2O's development process.
Contact me off line, or get my number from our friend and give me a call.
Aloha,
Dan
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Sorry I came across... cross. I have heard the Tact over and over through many transformations. It is amazing to me the TacT people don't improve their product from the outset. To my ears, the things that produced the most positive differences were after market ferrite cloths, and ferrite protected power cords. I haven't come to an equally easy conclusion about the profit gained by inserting Black Gate mods.
We also can't rush to judgement against a new product. Synergy is everything. I don't know why one would assume the TacT houses a cutting edge DAC. I doubt if the older TacT pre-amp has the same DAC as the TacT amp.
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