Belden 8402, 8412, and 8428

Finished the third set of Belden 8402 ICs yesterday, cooked them on my Cable Cooker for almost a day, and then connected all three sets to my system:

• 2M from DAC to passive volume control
• .5 M from VC to unity gain buffer
• 1.5 M from buffer to monoblocks

Rich and creamy, for sure. Some might call them subdued, but then they started to open up to display nice clarity on the top end. Switching from fine stranded Furutech speaker cables to Cardas Golden Cross helped add definition and weight. Need to give the Belden 8402 ICs some time and maybe try some other speaker cables. The 8402 ICs sound pretty good, in a musical way, but may not end up replacing the Furutech u-P2.1 ICs.

The Belden 8402 ICs are sounding pretty good with the Cardas Golden Cross speaker cables. 

The Belden 8428 wire arrived yesterday and that stuff is like 8402 on steroids.  It is basically the same thing as 8402, except bigger (41 strands of 34awg wire vs. 26 strands) and the outer jacket is a little different.  However, the CPE outer jacket, while maybe just a little less soft and rubbery than the CPSE on the 8402, is still softer and more flexible than typical PVC jackets.  Both shields are 85 percent, but for some reason it seems there is more shield with the larger 8428, but maybe because it has to cover a larger cable.  It also seems as if the 8428 has more internal packing material, but probably for the same reason - the cable is larger overall.

I should have a chance to finish some or all of the 8428 cables today and tomorrow, so I look forward to hearing them.  Of course, the real test will be when I reinstall the Furutech ICs.

For any still interested in the tinned copper ICs, I finished all of the 8428 cables, cooked them for almost two days, and started listening yesterday.   I decided to go with a full set of whichever type of cable I was trying, so I replaced the three Belden 8402 cables with three (2@2M and 1@0.5M) Belden 8428 cables. 

First impressions are that the 8428s provide a similar presentation but perhaps a more melodic tone and more fleshed-out bass.  IOW, similar but probably better sounding (and certainly not worse) than the 8402.  One interesting construction feature about the 8428 that I did not notice with the 8402 is the presence of a cotton string wrap directly around the wire and inside of the first insulation layer.  After stripping the insulation, I needed to unwind, cut, and remove the cotton string that was in direct contact with the cotton wires.  I have never seen that before but it means the first insulation layer is cotton, which provides a bit of separation from the EPDM insulation and may provide additional damping.

Since I purchased the 8428, I became aware that Belden makes an 8408, which appears to be constructed exactly like the 8402, except that the signal conductors are 16 awg instead of 20 awg.  Since I liked the larger 8428 cable with its 18 awg conductors, and considering the positive results some have reported from using 16 awg Duelund or WE wires, I decided to order some of the 8408 cable and will report on that after it gets here. 

All of this is just playing around to tweak out any sonic variations and, as I said before, the real test of whether they stay in my system will be when I reinstall the Furutech ICs.

I have "full looms" of both the 8402 and 8428 and prefer the 8428 myself. Just "better" and less colored (but both are way less colored than Duelund or WE).

I was also curious about trying the 8408 as well but it's really thick and won't fit in most RCA connectors.

@sfoclt - I agree with your impressions.  However, in my case, the cables are all balanced with the shield connected to pin 1 at both ends, the same as most commercially manufactured balanced cables.

I have the 8408 in route and will report on how they sound, how they compare to the 8428, and whether there are similarities between the 8408 and 8402, which differ only in wire gauge.

Just for grins I ordered a nice set of custom built 8402 interconnects with great ends to give them a true evaluation vs several other cables I have. Tried them for 4 weeks, and passed them along to a friend to give them a whirl. He’s passed on them now too, he's using Audio Sensibility instead for his other budget system. They were worth about what i paid for them. Just okay, nothing special for me. 

If there is a much better version of Belden, might try that later too just for fun. More into pure copper and not a fan of tinned copper as much. Would like to see more/other tests of some of the boutique value-price cable makers vs. Belden to help those exploring value cables or for those building 2nd, 3rd systems fwiw.

I wouldn't argue with those who believe the tinned copper wire colors the sound.  I have tried the 8204 before and thought it to be just ok, but I had just enough extra coiled up that I could make the lengths I needed for a complete set (2@2M and 1@0.5M) and then reading about it brought me to the 8428, which seems to be somewhat of an improvement.  Then I saw the 8408 and thought what the heck, go big or go home.

In the end I will compare the tinned Belden to my Furutech u-P2.1 cables, which may not be what most consider to be at the very top of the line but the quality is hard to argue with: two strands of 19 awg fine stranded (alpha) OCC wire, with foamed polyethylene insulation, cotton fillers, and a copper braid shield, plus a durable, flexible, outer cover.

The only thing better than finding a thread posing and answering exactly the questions you're looking for is realizing that if you'd searched for it two weeks prior, it wouldn't have existed.  

One of the main criteria for any system of mine is always solidity and tonal density,  which can be challenging to achieve without overly rounding things off.  For ICs I'd settled on Anticables the last few years, but I bought a pair of 8402 last summer and now my interest in this rabbit hole is again piqued. 

I'm very happy with the 8402 running out of the phono pre but they didn't work as well from other sources and that's because of the music itself.  As it happens, all the records in my meager collection are either relaxing listens or acoustic instrumentation or both, and the texture and color from the 8402 play very well to that.  When I'm playing CDs or streaming, though, I'm more likely to be listening to something that requires zippier transients, has more expansive soundstaging, or needs firmer foundations than the 8402 provides.

I'm definitely going to build a second pair with a lifted ground to see if that minor addition of air and speed will help but figured while I'm at it, why not find a few other options to make and compare.  Go big or go home, as you say.

Thanks for this thread and I'm looking forward to your further findings.

@climbereg 

I am glad if you find this thread useful.  It is almost 10 years behind the curve, i.e., after the fervor that started with Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki of Spec Corporation, when their vision of "real sound" was reported on by PF reviewer Jeff Day in PF Issue 78. 

Mr. Day was subsequently introduced to the Belden 8402 cable used as an interconnect and vintage Western Electric tinned copper wire used as speaker cable, by the folks at Spec Corportion, and then he introduced us to it in PF Issue 81, plus a series of Jeff's Place articles, where he documented his conversion to using the Belden and WE wire in his personal system.  Mr. Day eventually migrated to using Duelund wire, after they jumped on the bandwagon by offering various tinned copper in oiled cotton bulk wire/cable offerings.

I previously made cables from the 8402, WE, and Duelund wires, and I found the 10awg WE wire particularly useful for making power cables (either single or doubled up for 7awg!) and I later learned that Mojo Audio power cables have used that wire, as well as Triode Wire Labs American series power and speaker cables.  I believe the Duelund wire was sort of a fad, although it does provide a reliable source of tinned copper wire and does away with the inner plastic insulation of the WE wire, which was good for power cables since it was actually rated for voltage.

The IC cables I have made from 16 awg WE wire, and 20 awg Duelund wire, sound pretty good but I like using manufactured wire for ICs because you benefit from the uniformity of the manufacturing process (i.e., frequency of winding and the uniform use of packing/damping materials).  

I am listening to the 8428 interconnects right now, which, as I posted, are constructed slightly differently from the 8402.  The two main differences are the wire gauge which is 18awg for the 8428 (20 awg for 8402), and the additional cotton wrap directly in contact with the conductor wires in the 8428 cables.  I do have 3 pairs of 8408 cables on the way here, which are constructed exactly same as the 8402, except the wire gauge is 16awg vs. 20awg.  I suspect as you go larger in wire diameter the result may be a bolder, harder-hitting, but maybe thicker sound. The cables I made from 16awg WE cables displays those traits, but not necessarily in a bad way.  I cannot speak to the different termination methods as all of my cables are balanced so the braid shield is connected to pin 1 at both ends.  I suppose I could connect the shield only at the source end but would then need to add a spiraled ground wire outside of the cable as I do with the DIY WE or Duelund cables - too much work for no significant benefit.  I will probably eventually be passing off my two, 2M sets of 8402.

In comparison to the 8402, I would say the 8428 might display a bit more body overall, and deeper, harder hitting bass.  I find clarity to be pretty good, at least in my system and the 8428 cable seems to be at least as well balanced across all frequencies as the 8402. 

All of these cables seems to sound midrange-centric, where the body and tone of the mids are displayed as the most important features of whatever you are listening to.  Some say the result is rolling off of the extremes, but I wouldn't necessarily go there.  They sound pretty good, until I find something I like better.  As I said previously, the test will come when I reinstall my Furutech u-P2.1 (19awg OCC copper in foamed PE) interconnects.

@mitch2 It is interesting to happen across this discussion. After fooling with some boutiquey options, I was encouraged to try Belden 8428 following comments I had seen out of Asia and Europe. I terminated these with Neutrik gold plated XLR and grounded a both ends. This combination proved to be a stopping point. The only curiosity I've had since is perhaps solid silver just for the sake of comparison, but I have found the 8428 to be full bodied and just ever so slightly to the rich side of neutral, but not lacking in resolution or speed.

Hi, @mitch2, happy spring.  How are the cable comparisons coming and those 8408s sounding?

@climbereg - I ended up expanding the comparisons to include 8402, 8428, and even 8408, which is constructed exactly like 8402 except using 16awg conductors.

I then included a couple of types of (un-tinned copper) cables from Gotham AG, which is a company like Belden and Mogami.

I then added a full set of Cardas Golden Reference interconnects to the mix, and finally revisited my tinned copper DIY cables using both Western Electric NOS wire as well as the newer Duelund tinned copper in cotton wire.

I don’t have time for a full write-up but the result was somewhat dependent on both the equipment in place at the time (I have been trying different DACs) and the type of sound desired by the listener.  Even though I still have all of those cables, my system is currently wired using the DIY tinned copper cables by Duelund (20awg from DAC to pre) and WE (16 awg from pre to amps).  

Whew, sounds like a lot of work!

I am running 8402 and 8428, and curious about what could be gained (or lost) with moving to the larger gauge 8408.  When you get some time to organize your thoughts, would love to know if bigger is indeed better on those Beldens!

@climbereg - As a high level summary, my opinion is that all of the tinned copper Belden varieties displayed the rich midrange-centric "real sound" discussed by Jeff Day and Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki of SPEC Corporation in the Jeff Day blog here and here, with a 2024 follow-up here.  

After listening to the different Belden cables several times, I seem to like the original 20awg 8402 cables best overall but the larger 18awg 8428 cables were close and I could certainly live with them, especially between my preamp and amplifiers.  I did not get on with the 16awg 8408 at all.  The 8408 cables I received were improperly constructed and I returned them but the poor construction was related to reliability/durability and not how they sounded, so I was able to listen to them and IMO the sound was a little thick and dull in comparison to the others.  I was not particularly surprised as thicker is often better for speaker cables, but not for interconnects.

The Gotham 10561 GAC-2 UltraPro and 10601 GAC-2 AES/EBU were both clear and open sounding, and many would probably say they were more "accurate", compared to the tinned copper Belden's real sound, which tended to romanticize the midrange and fill out the bass.  Of the two Gotham cables, I preferred the 20awg UltraPro over the 22awg GAC-2, which is intended to be used as either a 110 ohm digital cable or as an analog cable.  I haven't tried it as a digital cable but maybe I will.

This cable stuff is infuriating. Just when I think I have it sorted, I try something else (that I have tried before) and I like those better.  Today, it is back to the (stinky) Cardas Golden Reference. They do a lot things well and their only anomaly, from my perspective, is a bit of rounding off the edges and fullness in the bass.  I wouldn’t call it “warmth” but it does lead to a somewhat smoother, relaxing presentation, all without losing high frequencies, transients, and certainly tonal quality, which is outstanding. So, not exactly neutral but for sure enjoyable.

@mitch2 They do a lot things well and their only anomaly, from my perspective, is a bit of rounding off the edges and fullness in the bass.  I wouldn’t call it “warmth” but it does lead to a somewhat smoother, relaxing presentation, all without losing high frequencies, transients, and certainly tonal quality, which is outstanding.

Yep, there it is. And a bit more of that with Clear Reflection.  I sold my Golden Reference, had two pairs, nice, and replaced them with Clear Ref after I compared the two back and forth over a few weeks. Your results may vary of course. 

Ponder this, and I wonder about this periodically any time I have some of my better Cardas cables in play. The same question occurs every single time I use them.  Let’s ask ourselves this too -  is it rounding the top end -or- allowing more of the midrange, mid bass, and lower bass to come through?  I still hear plenty of detail on top, its just smoother, less grain, with more weight and body to the presentation.

My custom Belden 8402 with nice connectors were neutral yes, however seemingly just a little less of everything, less smooth, more grain, notably less enjoyable to listen to for whatever reasons. After a few weeks, could not wait to swap back as well.  

@decooney 

"is it rounding the top end -or- allowing more of the midrange, mid bass, and lower bass to come through?  I still hear plenty of detail on top, its just smoother, less grain, with more weight and body to the presentation."

Exactly. The rounding I hear is more in the midrange than at the top. Just a touch less sharp presentation, which is comparitively great on poor recordings and still pretty much just fine on everything else.

"My custom Belden 8402 with nice connectors were neutral yes, however seemingly just a little less of everything, less smooth, more grain, notably less enjoyable to listen to for whatever reasons."

I still like the 8402s and 8428s but in comparision to the CGR they are less smooth, although their saving grace is an added glow in the midrange and pretty good bass (but not quite as good as the Cardas).  As with the tinned copper speaker cables I have used, I still like the 8402s, and my DIY ICs using Duelund or WE wire, over a lot of other cables, but I keep coming back to the CGR.

To @mitch2 good to know. I've only tried one pair of custom 8402s to compare with. I'd like to find sometime a few levels up form the Belsen's and Mogami cables to try for fun with other source components I use.  I do like testing different interconnects once in a while. If something else comes to mind by yourself or others, I might give it a go. I had someone from another forum asking to buy one pairs of my Cardas ICs and I'd like to replace them with something if I let them go. Enjoy your listening! 

Update: As noted above, with a different twist, I just commissioned a simple custom build for two pairs of 1m RCA interconnects, through an industry colleague following a few simple design parameters we agreed upon. This will include copper conductors sourced from a particular region we both grew up in, moderate complexity dielectrics, and look quite nice too.  There are some things i plan to compare and test against some other cables i own.  Also doing this for a few local friends to loan and try after i'm done testing over the summer. Something to do as I enjoy surfacing value products at reasonable cost.  We'll see how it goes, fwiw.