Had a chance to play with fully "KABed" SL-1200 last weekend. What a great table! In high resolution system it really shines.
Back into vinyl - part 1
About five years ago, while I was living nice, quiet, and boring vinyl-less life, I run across some very nice LPs while walking around my local flee market. I got rid of all my records years ago, almost immediately after Sony and Philips promised us all “Perfect Sound Forever”. My music life was easy and simple, few hundred of my CDs were complemented by couple hundred cassettes and only sometimes I was wondering how come some of my cassettes sounded very obviously better than CDs.
But I would not let these thoughts bother me – digital was better, period. Doesn’t every manufacturer of audio equipment say so for 20 years now?
Anyway, the albums I run across were so dear to me and so impossible to find on CDs that I bought them, without even thinking about the fact that I had absolutely no idea how to use them. Did they even sell turntables anymore?
Being a nerd I started searching the Net for information and to my surprise discovered that not only they still sell TTs, but there is a whole range of them, from 50 Presidents all the way to tens of thousands.
I was considering getting me some of those 78s, so three-speed machine was needed. I quickly found a site of KAB Electro-Acoustics, and called the guy.
Kevin was very helpful and knowledgeable. After hearing my pathetic story he very kindly described me current situation on the marked and few days later I was a proud owner of KAB Broadcast Standard, equipped with Shure V15VxMR.
The LPs that I bought sounded amazing. They were almost 40 years old, though in very good condition, but the sound was so real that no CD could even touch it.
Bare in mind, my system was nothing to write home about – middle-of-the-road ES Sony CD player, amplifier and cassette deck and Mission speakers.
And then I found audio forums.
OK, I have to admit – I am always questioning my knowledge. Even when I am 100% sure about something, there will always be a thought buried somewhere deep inside, saying “What If You Are Wrong?”
So I started asking questions and in return heard condolences about my TT and really stupid explanations about why direct drive is inferior to belt drive. Someone even quoted well-respected magazine reviewer stating that DD table is constantly changing speed at a rate of about 3500 times a second, which is quite audible.
I bought it.
I sold my KAB table (surprisingly very close to the original price), in my heart blaming Kevin for selling me this junk, and got myself a … well, I don’t think I should use any more names here – it is really irrelevant. Let’s just say that the table was listed at $750 and at that price point is considered to be a de facto standard in audiophile world.
Well, this is where my problems started. First, the damn thing was running fast. I was trying to get my dealer to fix it with no positive outcome. “The table is flawless” was the answer. Oh and did I mention “No Returns” policy?
Running fast, switching between speeds was a nightmare, and then in 2000 they released an updated motor in which was supposed to fix speed deviation problem (what problem?) which set me back another $150. With no positive outcome.
I had to let it go, losing a lot of money in the process.
What do you think I did next? Correct, I bought another belt-driven table from different manufacturer. It was about twice as expensive as my first one and was coming from the company that is even more respected in audiophile world.
The construction of the table was very unusual. Almost as unusual as one of the first models from this company, shown in one of Stanley Kubrick’s movies.
Built quality seemed to be better, but as I discovered, in order to achieve best results, I needed much better tonearm, special power supply etcetera, etcetera… Oh and did I mention that you can’t really clean the record on this table? Friction between the belt and the platter is too low for it…
I got back to the previous company and purchased their just-released top of the line model. Exotic materials used for platter, outboard power supply, fancy words used in its description… I was not as stupid as I used to be, so I purchased it from Canada, thus loosing my US warranty, but saving about 30%.
Well, what do you know? The table was running fast! The brilliantly engineered power supply did not allow for speed adjustments without knowing the schematics and friendly technical support staff of the manufacturer was too friendly to respond to my request.
Another bummer.
I was getting smarter. No more purchases, I said to myself, before I am sure I know what I am buying.
Very famous and very local manufacturer just released reasonably inexpensive model, which I borrowed from my local dealer. Build quality was so low that I still don’t understand how people can actually mention the word “quality” when talking about this table? Platter bearing was loose, table was running slow and besides the motor was running hot as hell. I called the company with my questions and they responded that bearing has to burn-in (oh really?) motor has high operating temperature and speed can be easily adjusted by using their power generator costing a mere $1000! Thanks!
I tried few more tables. The more expensive they were getting, the more I was shocked by their poor quality.
I got tired. My vinyl collection was several hundred LPs by now but I had no means of listening and enjoying.
Then I called Kevin.
I told him about my experience and my frustration and his simple and knowledgeable words got me back to real world.
I have a degree in electrical engineer for crying out loud, cant’ I do something?
And I did.
To be continued…
But I would not let these thoughts bother me – digital was better, period. Doesn’t every manufacturer of audio equipment say so for 20 years now?
Anyway, the albums I run across were so dear to me and so impossible to find on CDs that I bought them, without even thinking about the fact that I had absolutely no idea how to use them. Did they even sell turntables anymore?
Being a nerd I started searching the Net for information and to my surprise discovered that not only they still sell TTs, but there is a whole range of them, from 50 Presidents all the way to tens of thousands.
I was considering getting me some of those 78s, so three-speed machine was needed. I quickly found a site of KAB Electro-Acoustics, and called the guy.
Kevin was very helpful and knowledgeable. After hearing my pathetic story he very kindly described me current situation on the marked and few days later I was a proud owner of KAB Broadcast Standard, equipped with Shure V15VxMR.
The LPs that I bought sounded amazing. They were almost 40 years old, though in very good condition, but the sound was so real that no CD could even touch it.
Bare in mind, my system was nothing to write home about – middle-of-the-road ES Sony CD player, amplifier and cassette deck and Mission speakers.
And then I found audio forums.
OK, I have to admit – I am always questioning my knowledge. Even when I am 100% sure about something, there will always be a thought buried somewhere deep inside, saying “What If You Are Wrong?”
So I started asking questions and in return heard condolences about my TT and really stupid explanations about why direct drive is inferior to belt drive. Someone even quoted well-respected magazine reviewer stating that DD table is constantly changing speed at a rate of about 3500 times a second, which is quite audible.
I bought it.
I sold my KAB table (surprisingly very close to the original price), in my heart blaming Kevin for selling me this junk, and got myself a … well, I don’t think I should use any more names here – it is really irrelevant. Let’s just say that the table was listed at $750 and at that price point is considered to be a de facto standard in audiophile world.
Well, this is where my problems started. First, the damn thing was running fast. I was trying to get my dealer to fix it with no positive outcome. “The table is flawless” was the answer. Oh and did I mention “No Returns” policy?
Running fast, switching between speeds was a nightmare, and then in 2000 they released an updated motor in which was supposed to fix speed deviation problem (what problem?) which set me back another $150. With no positive outcome.
I had to let it go, losing a lot of money in the process.
What do you think I did next? Correct, I bought another belt-driven table from different manufacturer. It was about twice as expensive as my first one and was coming from the company that is even more respected in audiophile world.
The construction of the table was very unusual. Almost as unusual as one of the first models from this company, shown in one of Stanley Kubrick’s movies.
Built quality seemed to be better, but as I discovered, in order to achieve best results, I needed much better tonearm, special power supply etcetera, etcetera… Oh and did I mention that you can’t really clean the record on this table? Friction between the belt and the platter is too low for it…
I got back to the previous company and purchased their just-released top of the line model. Exotic materials used for platter, outboard power supply, fancy words used in its description… I was not as stupid as I used to be, so I purchased it from Canada, thus loosing my US warranty, but saving about 30%.
Well, what do you know? The table was running fast! The brilliantly engineered power supply did not allow for speed adjustments without knowing the schematics and friendly technical support staff of the manufacturer was too friendly to respond to my request.
Another bummer.
I was getting smarter. No more purchases, I said to myself, before I am sure I know what I am buying.
Very famous and very local manufacturer just released reasonably inexpensive model, which I borrowed from my local dealer. Build quality was so low that I still don’t understand how people can actually mention the word “quality” when talking about this table? Platter bearing was loose, table was running slow and besides the motor was running hot as hell. I called the company with my questions and they responded that bearing has to burn-in (oh really?) motor has high operating temperature and speed can be easily adjusted by using their power generator costing a mere $1000! Thanks!
I tried few more tables. The more expensive they were getting, the more I was shocked by their poor quality.
I got tired. My vinyl collection was several hundred LPs by now but I had no means of listening and enjoying.
Then I called Kevin.
I told him about my experience and my frustration and his simple and knowledgeable words got me back to real world.
I have a degree in electrical engineer for crying out loud, cant’ I do something?
And I did.
To be continued…
105 responses Add your response
Arrakian- There are some who believe that the KAB tonearm mod addresses the arm refinement and control issue quite well and that a replacment arm is not needed or is not necessarily better. It may come down to different type of presentations versus clear differences in quality of sound produced. I do not know from firsthand experience about different arms, but there are reviews and threads out there on it, and Kevin could give you his input. All I am sure about is that the 1200 with this mod makes very good music for me, is a fairly sophisticated table in terms of adjustments allowed, but is easy to setup, and I am very happy with it. The music on good recordings to my ears is expansive, immediate, organic and visual. I am guessing that much has to do with the Dynavector 10X5 cartidge which seems very nice so far. Good luck. Lots of choices out there. |
Arrakian- I just set up a Technics SL-1200 MK2 with the KAB modded tonearm that I got used. You might talk with Kevin at KAB about what he thinks about changing the arm, or what others have thought about that. I am using a Dynavector 10X5 cartridge and this setup is working very well for me and sounds great to my ears. |
Here, just for Pyschicanimal is part 2 of the saga of the “posh” feet. The ideal for a turntable, arm and cartridge is to turn those minute wiggles in the groove into an exact electrical facsimile. That goal has been pursued through the years by some of the greatest minds in science. It makes you wonder if they had turned their talents to something along the lines of research into cancer or crop disease then the world would not be in the terrible state it is in today. Quite often a discovery in one sphere has implications and uses in something completely different. Sorbothane springs to mind. What the hell is he on about now? Vibration, that’s what! It has been the bugbear of turntable designers since the record was invented. First there is the vibration leading to extraneous signals entering the system and then finding there way into the signal leaving the arm and secondly there are vibration losses, wiggles in the grove that are swamped and lost before they even get to being electrical signals. These new feet have been designed to eliminate the first kind of vibration but as a bonus seem to have a lessening effect on the second type of vibration as well. How can this be and what do I base my conclusions on? My ears and a few amateur (and quite comical) experiments. I have already mentioned that my system is not ideally placed being on a suspended wooden floor on a smart but not inert rack. I managed to cajole my wife and son into dancing to some Chopin waltzes whilst I listened and made notes. I also recorded the results onto a mini disc. There were three sets of feet (stock, sonic domes and the isonoes). Each set was tried and recorded and the result listened back through headphones. 1 Stock feet – this caused much hilarity as the needle kept popping out of the groove causing my son to step on my wife’s feet leading to several sessions with the foot spa and threats to sue me. 2. Sonic domes – much improved. My wife enjoyed the dance and even invited me to trot the light fantastic with her. 3. Isonoe feet – the music flowed and my wife and son stopped dancing to listen. The listening to the three waltzes recorded onto mini disc via headphones. 1. Stock fee - as imagined, unlistenable 2. Sonic domes – good but you could still hear the footfalls. 3. Isonoe feet – nothing but the music. Last session was just me, headphones and Joan Armatrading “Show Some Emotion” and “Willow”. 1 Stock feet – good steady and all you would expect of a KAB Broadcast Standard. 2 Sonic domes – all the good points of the stock feet with just a little more feeling and presence. The hairs on my arm were standing up. 3 Isonoe feet – Joan was standing in front of me and singing just for me. Goosebumps and shivers down my spine. A quite wonderful experience. It was not one of those never to repeated moments when everything was just right. This has proved to be consistent with all my listening. It is quite possible that I wanted to hear the improvement because I had just spent all that money and it was psychological effect but I don’t think so as that sort of thrill usually wears off after a few days. This is a continuing love story. I can not imagine going back to stock feet again. Recommended – you betcha!! |
I think we are going off the thread with the room correction thoughts but if you will allow, I have one idea that may be of interest. I promise this will be the last one. I have an experiement that most people should be able to try at some time that could prove to be quite revealing. Take a nice warm sunny day when you are at home, your partner is out and the children are at school. The neighbours are at work and all is at peace. The ideal time for a couple of hours in front of the hi-fi with the volume up wallowing in glorious sound. Wait, here is the experiment. Open the french windows onto the garden. Unplug the speakers and wheel them out onto the lawn. Run some cable from the amp to the speakers (some twin core mains cable will do - nothing fancy). Place the speakers on the lawn, raised from the ground on temporary stands (kitchen chairs will do) place a deck chair at the apex of your listening triangle, put some music on (vinyl, cd or live radio broadcast) and listen. What you have done is remove the influence of your listening room from your system. You are now listening to your system in virtual free space just as the makers intended. I think you will be amazed. I tried it once, some years ago and I still remember the glourious sound of Copelands "Fanfare For The Common Man" soaring over the neighbourhood as if the whole damn orchestra was in my garden, live. I have never been able to capture that accuracy since. Just a thought and I promise to not go off thread any more. |
I completely concur with your opinion of the potential in purpose-built listening rooms, based on my experiences in recording studios. From what I've heard, I agree that a good $20K system in a purpose-built $40K room will in the most important ways smoke the $60K system in a living room, though I can't extend the same benefit of the doubt to your hypothetical $1K system, or at least certainly not in any area except the room itself (the system *does* still matter). |
That is amazing. I still wonder, however, for us living the suburban dream if a more sensible approach is to set a level of expenditure and then decide if above that level there is a discernable improvement as opposed to a different sound. If, for example, you decide to spend in the region of $60k then would a $60k system in an ordinary domicile sound more lifelike than a $20k system with the other $40k spent on room acoustics. I suspect a $1k system in a purpose built listening facility would sound superior to the $60k system in any "ordinary lounge". The problem is being tackled and the leaders at present are Tact Audio. Have a look at www.tactaudio.co.uk and check out their Room Correction range. They have received excellent reviews in the English press. |
Qualityman: Actually, TWL's system was assembled within non-extravagant budget constraints, something he makes clear if read through the body of the text. And its naturally limited HF dispersion, early LF roll-off, and single-driver suitability for near-field listening (required in his case - he lives in a log cabin) means it won't engender much in the way of nasty room interactions. If you look again, you'll see he made his own speakers, and doesn't use a mega-$$$ cartridge or turntable/arm. The specially-commissioned amp (which is a bare chassis), while probably not exactly cheap, is still going to be much less than many popular kilo-watt monsters, or even plently of SET's requiring expensive output transformers. And he doesn't have any digital gear. The battery-powered aspect will add some investment that most folks don't have, but since TWL lives off of the power grid, he doesn't have to pay electricity bills - his rig is charged by solar power. For the average audiophile, it's a lot easier to just throw money at their system than it is to intelligently craft a personal solution that synergistically brings together its creator's lifestyle and music reproduction preferences, which what I dare say TWL has done, much more than most. And Sean happens to be another one, but in about the opposite direction system-wise :-) |
Jphii, My God!! and I thought I was weird in the money I spend on my gear. That rig must be worth more than my House! I hope he has got a specialist audio consultant to design and build a dedicated listening room, it would have to be the equivalent of an anoic chamber to do justice to that equipment. Which of course leads on to the next thought - at what point do you abandon the quest for perfect sound and start building dedicated listening rooms before you buy your gear. Even modest gear would sound better than exotic gear in such a dedicated room. |
BTW, $150 is actually about the lowest I would have guessed for those footers. I suppose I'm just used to high end pricing: if dem babies was made to retrofit something like Basis tables instead of the SL-1200, by their looks they'd go for $400 easy. And they'd get it too (so they probably ought to do it :-) |
"I want to ask a question but have no technical knowledge so forgive me if it appears stupid." I have to stipulate to the same ignorance but will not be able to beg forgiveness after what follows :-) "It seems to me that the finest sounding products are DC powered. Kevin's PS1200 for the SL 1200..." The PS1200 is what any normal audio power supply is: the part of the circuit that takes 60Hz, 120v alternating current from the wall and converts it to direct current that the component can use (simplified account). That description applies whether the power supply is located inside the component chassis or is housed separately, a not-uncommon configuration though still in the minority overall (excepting high end turntables). So it doesn't mean much to decribe the PS1200 - or the SL1200, with or without the PS1200 - as being "DC powered", because in that sense all gear is DC powered. "Why couldn't all audio products be supplied...with a wall wart...? This removes the noisy transformer away from delicate electronic circuits." It's true a wall wart removes the transformer from the chassis (as well as potentially limiting its size), but not the remainder of the power supply. Anyway, for most components not as sensitive to vibration as a turntable (and in truth that's all other components, despite audiophile obsession over the idea), with a little care taken in design and implementation the complete power supply is built into the single chassis with near-zero negative effects (and even some positive ones) - just witness the vast majority of high end gear. But striving for the last squillionth of refinement, some all-out component designs do segregate the entire power supply (and frequently the non-audio control circuitry as well) in a second box. This may or may not be as effective as claimed compared to a single box, and may or may not be duplicable in a single box in terms of sound quality - after all, there's usually no real way of the consumer knowing for sure. (The situation of the SL1200 which Kevin exploited in introducing his PS1200 is unusual in regard to high end turntables generally, which would never have this sort of stuff onboard to begin with, and now we SL1200 owners can appreciate why.) "An obvious upgrade would then be a large transformer, mains powered with several DC outputs that could be used to replace the cheap wall warts." Upgrade from wall warts, potentially yes. Musical Fidelity markets its X-PSU under this theory, but notice that their real high end gear contains either onboard power supplies or complete dedicated power supplies housed in second chasses. The power supply is one of the most important sections of any good piece of audio gear, and a designer needs to have a free hand to approach all aspects of a component wholistically, so one-size-fits-all is not a practical approach for more ambitious products. Battery power is of course different (though not necessarily always, or in all ways, better), in that it requires no transformation from AC to DC or the attendant needs for isolation and smoothing the ripple. And you sever the connection to the powerline grid and therefore the noise and distortion that contaminates it, even though batteries can have their own practical difficulties and limitations. My own phonostage happens to be battery-powered, the application that's always seemed to me to be the easiest, and likely the most sonically productive, for which to implement the technique. |
Very good question. First off, take a look at this system. As you will see, even tube amps can be driven by battery. I'm hoping the system owner will chime in here, because this is one of his specialties. |
I want to ask a question but have no technical knowledge so forgive me if it appears stupid. It seems to me that the finest sounding products are DC powered. Kevins PS1200 for the SL 1200, external phono stages, headphone amps etc. Why could not all audio products be supplied as DC with a wall wart supply? This removes the noisy transformer away from delicate electronic circuits. An obvious upgrade would then be a large transformer, mains powered with several DC outputs that could be used to replace the cheap wall warts. The outputs could be at different voltages to suit various bits of kit. It could apply to CD players, recorders, minidiscs, turntables, turners, cassettes, DVD etc. etc. The only problem would be the high power amplifier that would require a huge outboard transformer. Even that could be tackled by a dedicated engineer. Any thoughts? |
For what they are they were pricey. With shipping in UK £90 which I think is about $150 US. A lot of people would baulk at that amount just for feet but they do seem to do more than just isolate. There is a definite improvement. Kevin is interested in them but is unlikely to import them to US as he could not sell them for less than $140 or so. He did say he would consider designing his own if there is enough interest. He also told me that his first project needs to be the arm rewiring as his own listening tests have indicated that the Mk 5 is slightly superior to the Mk 2/3 and the only difference he can see is the arm wiring on the Mk5 which carries a logo of "Technics Hi Fi" or something similar. |
Thanks for clearing that up - now I can see what this product is, and presumably how it works. The pics imply it is designed with the 1200 in mind, so leveling has been taken care of with the appropriate threaded post. All the hoo-ha on the website about CAD modeling and simulation, CNC machining to 1 micron, special grade of alloy to "maximize the ratio of stiffness", etc. etc., is I'm guessing a prelude to a hit in the wallet. While all the claims may be true, what it looks like we have here is a pretty elementary device designed to 'hang' the load from compliant bands under tension rather than compression. If the bands are sufficiently self-damping and the set of 4 is properly tuned for the 1200's mass - and it sure should be judging from the come-on - then these ought to be quite effective. I believe the same principle is used in the suspensions of certain SME turntables, although more bands look to be employed. I can't dispute that these feet cut quite the sharp profile under the table. Care to clue us in on the damages? |
Even listening through phones, the needle riding in the groove is always a constant source of vibration dealt with by the turntable. If the table is not supported in such a way that is compliant (to isolate the table from outside inputs) but also well-damped, then the effects of this self-generated vibration will linger longer and cause more subsequent interference at the stylus/groove interface, with audible effect on the reproduced sound. Rigidly spiking the chassis to a sturdy rack might also work well in this regard as long as you listened through phones, but listening through the speakers on a springy floor with a so-so rack, damped compliance is the way to go. What will work best is kind of a hit-or-miss affair, the system Q depending as it does upon the mass of the suspended table (and shelf if used) and the compliant and damping properties of the chosen supports (and their distribution and number used), not to mention the properties of the rack and floor. The whole interaction is probably too complex to predict usefully, especially given that the exact properties of the supports in a state of compression are likely an unknown, so trial and error to hear what works well is generally the easiest way to go about things here. My own experience has been that compliant footers which are broadly shaped (not spherical or conical, though a very shallow hemisphere seems OK) and of relatively low height, made from fairly dense and soft (somewhat squishy, flexible) material that exhibits a 'slow' rebound character (is not bouncy), and used in numbers that keep each support under only medium compression (I use five 2" diameter pucks) do the trick. The stock 1200 threaded feet are useful for the necessary task of leveling the table. So what I do is keep the feet on, but place whole shebang atop an inert shelf that is isolated from my rack by the compliant feet (my shelf is a Symposium and the feet are FoculPods; my rack is a Salamander Synergy that is also on casters and is not the most rigid thing going). I have thought about experimenting with removing the stock feet and replacing them with brass cones having the appropriate threaded posts to still work for leveling purposes - thereby coupling the table's chassis to the nonresonant shelf, which might function effectively as a vibrational sink, and eliminating a potential source of phase-reinforced interaction between the undoubtedly differently-tuned resonances of the two sets of compliant footers. But I haven't done it yet. |
I have now had the replacement feet for 10 days and have done some comparative listening tests. First impressions are favourable. Based on "thump the turntable support whilst wearing headphones with the pickup stationary on a record" 1 Stock feet - horrendous thump heard 2 Kevins sonic domes - reduced thump but still a thump 3 Isonole feet - absolute silence Based on "thump the deck plate whilst wearing headphones with pick up playing a record". This was not a heavy thump, I would say equivalent to someone knocking against the turntable support whilst playing record. 1 Stock feet - pick up jumps out of groove 2 Sonic Domes - pick up keeps in groove but mistracking heard 3 Isonole feet - rock steady, no perceptable difference Listening to music via speakers at normal volumes (85db measured on a cheap hand held sound level meter so accuracy not good) 1 Stock feet - rock solid image, dark background, instruments portrayed accurately. Human voice nicely presented. 2 Sonic domes - as above but more of it. 3 Isonole feet - Another veil gone. Everything more vivid, dynamic. Last trace of silibance gone from female voice. Same test via headphones, speakers switched off. The same findings as above. Conclusions: I really do not understand this. It must be all to do with vibration and transmission of the vibration. My outfit sits and an Optimum 5 shelf rig coupled to a suspended wooden floor via castors. This is not the most rigid of setups. I therefore expected differences using speakers but via headphones????? There seems to be something more fundemental going on here! The only explanation I can come up with is that vibration is entering from somewhere else, apart from the speakers, maybe from the amp that sits on the second shelf of the stand, and that the Iosonole feet are filtering the vibes out. The sonic domes are reducing this vibration but the Ionoles are killing the vibes dead. So are the feet worth it? If you use your SL1200 at horrendous volumes (DJing?) or in an environment that is less than ideal, most definitely. If you use the SL1200 for normal domestic listening and have paid attention to obivous sources of vibration probably not, go for the sonic domes. If you are after the last enth of quality then definitely yes. Another veil been lifted. One thing is certain, ditch the stock feet. My equipment is good but not high end. If I can hear the differences then I am sure someone with a well matched superfi system will be over the moon with these feet. The pecking order for upgrade for the SL1200 has to be: PS1200 first Arm damping second Feet third Threaded clamp fourth Strobe disabler fifth. It would be nice if someone with the time, knowledge and test equipment could run a proper measured comparison against the stock feet and come up with an explanation of what is happening. Music used for each set of feet was: Joan Armatrading "Show Some Emotion" Leo Sayer "Another Year" Beethoven Piano Sonata "Appasionata" Oh yes - one last plus point for the Iosonoles, by God they look the business. |
A passive switchbox might potentially introduce less degradation than running the phono input in and out of the receiver, but depending on how the internal routing on the receiver works the difference could be fairly negligible. The bigger difference in either switching scheme could be the introduction of the extra set of interconnects (and the expense for same). I recommend simply running a test comparing direct-feed to switched-feed to ascertain what's audible, and then balance what you find against the convenience factor. I think the gains just from going to the better phonoamp will handily exceed any small losses should you choose to go the switchable route. (Sorry, can't give any advice on your proposed amp choices.) |
I have received the new isolation feet for the SL1200 and will report after I have some experience. Early signs are very encouraging. It is liable to be a few days before I can report as I have three different sets of feet to compare (standard, Kevins sonic domes and the Isonole). Now for a question: I currently feed my turntable into the phono input on my Sony A/V amp. Then to my speakers, Kef KHT 2005 with a Mission sub woofer. It is fine for movies and uncritical listening. I do most of my listening on headphones which are fed from a Creek headphone amp. The signal is taken from one of the tape loops on the amp. The sound via head phones is vastly superior to the speakers, as you would expect. The problem is that the turntable now gives such a wonderful detailed and lifelike signal that I do not think the Sony phono input is doing it justice. I think a better phono amp is requied. 1st: What phono stage should I buy? Depth of pocket is an issue here. I think about £200 ($350) is about right and I have been looking at two possibilities. The current favourite is the Creek OBH 18 with Kevins Creek power supply. The specifications look fine, it is a name I know and trust and it will match the headphone amp. 2nd: Grahame Slee's MM phono stage with his own power supply £200 total. This has an excellent sonic reputation. Which sounds better, which is better made and which will suit my system best? Are there any others I should consider? Next question concerns hook up. I would like to feed my new phono stage directly into the head phone amp which poses no problem. This will give the best fidelity. If I do that I will lose the ability to play any other source through the head phone amp without swopping cables around each time I change source. What is the solution? I can retain the present setup and feed the new phono stage into a spare line input but then the sound will be coloured by the Sony amp. I can use splitters at the headphone amp to input the phono stage direct and still keep the other sources available. This introduces the splitter into the chain and will probably colour the sound. The other possibility is to use an addon extra input switch box from the likes of QED but these also will dirty the signal from the phono stage. So any one got any advice? |
Psych: BTW, based on your post of 12/15, can I assume you replaced the internal output wires leading from the circuit board terminal to the output jack? They seem to get the job done to me, but I thought you must have noticed they ain't exactly garden hoses by your standards...or did you just hardwire your hookup to the board and skip the jack altogether? |
The reason Kevin is coming up with more mods and more selection of 1200 models is simple: he's selling them right and left. It was all a matter of having the first few modded ones out there...now people are comparing them to other so-called 'audiophile' decks and they're not performing even close! Qualityman, Kevin showed me the link to those feet. Let us know how they perform when you get them... *** |
Hey all you SL1200 lovers ut there. Kevin has showed me this link. You should have a look. I love Kevins sonic domes but they look kinda home made, these look the business. I have ordered some and will let you know if they work in due course. http://www.decks.co.uk/products/accessories/deck_accessories/isonoe |
I did not visit this topic for some time now. Nice to see few more people taking 1200 seriously. I went slightly different way after short encounter with Denon, but still consider 1200 currently being the best value out there, and with main modifications that Kevin offers - easily better that most tables out there. |
I don't doubt that moving the power supply away from the TT is a good thing. I would also think that placing large filter caps inside of the TT itself would provide the instantaneous demands that the motor might need. You get less motor vibration into the plynth from the transformer and there's no loss of "power on demand". Sean > |
Zaikes, I haven't heard Nightdoggy's creature, though he sent me a detailed e-mail describing what he did. Basically, he reengineered/rerouted the quartz lock circuitry and used the best Panasonic electrolytic capacitors for feeding DC current to the platter. Tom's got his own mindset, just like Alex Yakovlev. I just learn from them and apply what's feasible. And yes, instant speed improvements translate into better music. Go to Rat Shack and buy two terminals and some 18 ga wire. Solder the thing after twisting the conductors and get back to us. Then get some VenHaus cryo'ed 18 ga solid core hookupwire and enjoy the new upgrade... *** |
>"He actually claims an outboard power supply is not the right thing to do" If so, then how does it work so well? Why do so many other (and otherwise dissimilar) audiophile TT designs use them as well? (Not to mention high-ticket 2-box preamp designs and even some power amps.) I have trouble believing the negligible DC resistance of a couple feet of wire (my multimeter measures it at about .1ohm) outweighs the benefits of getting the vibration-producing transformer out of the TT chassis, even if you could duplicate the entire improved PS in an onboard configuration. Sure, in an ideal world I guess all power sources would be located in intimate proximity with respect to the loads they're driving, but just as there are good reasons I don't have a generating station in my back yard or my tube monoblocks residing inside my loudspeakers, in the real world the best solution often seems to me to be the obvious and commonplace one. |
As much as I like him, Kevin has some lessons to learn in the instant power delivery department... I learned this approach from Nightdoggy, who told me is an EE and modded his 1200 without resorting to an outboard power supply. He actually claims an outboard power supply is not the right thing to do. Instant power delivery/lowered resistance is his approach. Everything I've done in this area results in less stylus drag--each and every time. *** |
Thanks for your input. Kevin is doubtful any improvement will be worthwhile. As for the AC input to the PS1200 I use a YELLO power chord from Russ Andrews. This is his bottom of the range job but superbly executed. I also use his replacement cable for my Sennheiser HD600 phones. The result is magical. Bass lines I didn't know existed suddenly appeared. The leads are horrendously expensive, almost as much as the original phones but I am happy. Visit the web site at www.russandrews.com, you will be amazed at the cost of some of the power chords. If you use phones a lot then a headphone amplifier is a must. Look at the Creek SE version that comes with a substantial power supply but once again only the flimsy wire for the DC output to feed the amplifier. I am currently looking at replacing the ubiquitous trailing sockets (I know a separate spur is the correct way to go but my wife will not allow). In total I need about 20 sockets and want something more substantial than the flimsy plastic jobs. The cost must be reasonable as I do not intend to spend hundreds of pounds. I think I will start a project of making my own distribution board. Still that will have to wait until after Christmas and if I can spare the time between and work and listening to my music. Happy listening |
Just the power supply, Sean. I mentioned the fact that the presumably unshielded twin-lead cord carries DC because it wouldn't radiate AC hum near the low-level signal cables. Although I realize an unshielded cable could act as a receiving antenna, it seems to me that if there's enough environmental EMI floating about to induce consequential problems on the TT's PS input, then that would be the least of one's worries with a phono signal. Anyway, the cable in question is like what's typically attached to your average wall-wart transformer, which many designers apparently regard as good enough to supply low-powered audio-amplification gear. Not that I know anything technical about the subject though, so I always appreciate your viewpoint. |
In the RF industry, we super-impose RF onto DC all the time. The use of an unshielded wire and / or a cable that uses a highly inductive geometry in this situation is something that i would take issue with. At the same time though, you don't want to use a heavy or rigid cable as it will tend to couple more air-borne and / or shelf-borne vibration into the TT itself. Out of curiosity, is this just an outboard power supply or is the speed regulation circuitry also contained in this module? Sean > |
I have replaced the DC power lead from the stock 24 ga to 18 ga solid core copper from Radio Shack. The improvement was almost as radical as installing the power supply. Installing a cryo'ed power cord in the outboard power supply also is a dramatic improvement. Anything power related upgrade is noticeable at this level. Everything's audible... I figure cryo'ed, silver plated wire (12ga) should be really fantastic. Also, replacing the internal DC wire should provide some real positive results. *** |
I don't know how big a deal extra shielding is with the DC current and at whatever impedances are involved, but Kevin did tell me he didn't think this was a significant consideration. OTOH Psychicanimal did do roughly what you're thinking of, except with Rat Shack wire I believe (of a heavier guage anyway - I'm not sure about any shielding), and thought there was definite improvement, so I guess it depends who you ask. He urged me to try this as well, but I haven't gotten around to it. Along similar lines, both of us experimented with upgrading the power cord going into the PS-1200; he thought doing so made a worthwhile improvement for sure, I thought it sometimes made a marginal improvement when playing sensitive material (sufficiently small as to make it tough being honestly certain, although on balance I thought I heard just enough that I did elect to maintain the upgrade cord at the position), and Kevin seemed basically doubtful but appropriately deferential on the whole topic. Take your pick... |
I have a query. I have fitted the KAB PS1200 power supply to my Technics SL1200 and the improvement is startling to say the least. I wonder if anyone has tried to replace the flimsy power lead from the supply into the turntable with something better? I am thinking some sort of woven Kimber cable with RF shielding properties might improve things even better. Anyone experimented out there? |
Thanks for your input Qualityman. My take on something like the strobe-disabler is that if you can be sure you do hear a difference, then that difference almost by definition must be for the better, rather than just a subjective change. Personally, I found the outboard PS to be an even more significant upgrade than the tonearm fluid damper, and I imagine the strobe-disabler - while I wouldn't expect the degree of its effect to be quite as important as the PS - would probably fall along the same general lines qualitatively speaking, so I can fathom what you're talking about in theory. With the PS, my number one description for its effect is increased purity and refinement. I'll post my results once I install these further upgrades from KAB. (Fran, have you gotten 'em yet?) |
I have the strobe disabler. Not as obvious an improvement as the fluid damper but very worthwhile and good value. It is very hard to quantify and describe audio sounds but to me the back ground seems blacker (does that make sense) allowing the instruments to stand out better. Piano especially resonates with authority and the timbre of the notes is very realistic. The ambience of the venue comes across well providing the recording engineer has not stifled it. One other plus point is it is a sinch to fit. So is the threaded clamp. You must be careful when using the clamp as it is all too easy to exert too much force causing the record to concave. Great at flattening warps, giving the cart a better chance of accurate tracking and completely eliminating any slippage and consequently loss of information from the cartridge. Happy listening. |
I have to call Kevin about that threaded clamp of his - it's something we talked about before, but I hadn't realized he was actually plotting to introduce one. (BTW, do you have the new strobe-defeat feature, and if so do you find it improves the sound?) We've also talked about the wiring - the lead-out cables and the tonearm wire - an area he had expressed a reluctance to get into, but I agree that from a marketing standpoint at the very least, one which ideally needs to be addressed. The other main limiting factor inherent to the 1200, which is easily bettered in the majority of audiophile-approved TT designs (although not necessarily in the ubiquitous lesser Regas), is its too-resonant, thin aluminum platter. Kevin has thought of a good (if not entirely comprehensive) approach for dealing with this, but I understand it may be prohibitive in cost and production feasability. Still, I think that it (or something like it) can and should be attempted. In the meantime I'm getting by with the combination of the thin Technics rubber mat underneath a heavy Sorbothane mat, which together damps the platter ring better (and sounds better) than any other arrangement I've been able to try - including the stock Technics heavy rubber mat or any other single mat solution - but at the price of some difficulty with clamping thick vinyl pressings, a problem KAB's screw-down clamp ought to aleviate. (PS - By the way, since I last posted anything substantial to this thread I've upgraded to a $900-list line-contact MC cartridge, and the sonic performance lets me know every day that it is in no way being wasted in this context, just in case anyone doubted such a proposition.) |
First the whole TT debate of DD versus Belt versus Rim drive or whatever is a red herring. The only thing that matters is what your ears tell you. What is the holy grail for one is the dogs whotsits to another. I would like to say, however, that many years ago when the Linn/Naim axis strangled development of hi fi here in the UK there was one piece of excellent rhetoric that came out of it all and that was "Garbage in, garbage out. Using that as a starting point absolute speed accuracy, tracking ability, good steady and stiff power supply become paramount. Agree or disagree, a good turntable will sound better than a poor turntable. The difference should be obvious. Remember garbage in garbage out, what is lost at the beginning of the chain cannot be rescued later on. Irrespective of what electronics, speakers and connecting wire you use, a good (and compatable)turnatble, arm and cartridge will sound better through budget electronics than a lesses turntable arm and cartridge through the most exotic of gear. What you are talking about here is fine tuning to suit individual tastes. Rega turntables are a rip off (I've owned a P3 some yers ago), Linn are good but very, very overpriced. The best I ever owned (to my ears) was an STD (the original nextel finish) with an SME3 with the ortofon intgrated arm wand. They went the way of all hi fi systems when marriage,children & mortgages intervened. They were sold. Now, some 30 years later I am able to indulge myself again so what have I bought to satisfy my my craving to hear my vinyl again. Yes, a Technics SL1200 with KAB fluid damper, Kevins groovemaster cartridge, KAB power supply, KAB threaded record clamp and sonic dome feet. I am a happy man. I read (and sometimes drool) over the mega buck turntable setups and wish for that lucky line on the lottery but you know what, I honestly believe that even if I could afford one of those mega buck monoliths I would still come back to the technics. It is well engineered and technics have the confidence to actually provide you with specifications that you can use to beat them with if the turntable fails to measure up to them. Not many (any?) of the mega buck manufacturers are confident enough in their product to go that far. So I m a happy man. Kevin has told me that he has an idea up his sleeve but he is not sure if it is worthwhile pursuing. He feels that unfair criticism has been levelled at the tone arm on the technics (how many other manufacturers actually specify the friction of their bearings). He is toying with the idea of replacing the wiring in the arm. He wants it to be a DIY project and is going to provide a complete arm wand and wiring that will exit via the TOP of the turntable via a replacment machined hinge. Sounds facinating. I'm sure Kevin will not release it until he is satisfied that the improvement is worthwhile (audible). More power to him. While we have someone of his calibre in our corner the vinyl lp will reign supreme. Played on any good turnatble you will get the precision of a CD with the warmth and emotion of analogue. Long live the difference! |