B&W 802 D2 Capacitors Worth Upgrading?

@bossybilbo I wrote a blog post which was inspired by this discussion I think you'd find interesting.

@bossybilbo 

I found the Stereophile review, which thankfully was not written by JA.  The last page has a great description of the sound the B&W has stock, vs. the Revel Ultimas, which are in fact quite neutral.

It's worth reading as a guide to understand how the sound could change for you.

@bossybilbo

I love these speakers and in a way they have become a part of our home decor as well as the hifi system.

Welp, it sounds like you love the look but not the sound.  That's fine!! But it won't sound at all the same. It will sound much more neutral and laid back. 

I want to suggest you take future discussions over to DIYaudio where you'll get a lot of input from builders. 

I think you are taking a better approach than a cap replacement.  I'm going to write this up in detail in my blog, but looking at the original driver measurements I immediately thought of a DSP solution as being much easier than a passive crossover.  The mid and tweeter need a lot of EQ and that's why the author has to add so many more parts.

Tips:

• Consider a Hypex 3 channel DSP powered plate amp, perhaps in a custom box.  They have more than enough power. 
• It may be best to measure the speaker on mid-range axis.
• Always fix driver issues before setting high/low pass filters
• If you really want to stick to a 2-way amp per speaker, a hybrid approach using a passive woofer to midrange crossover. The woofer is probably the best behaved of all the drivers so needs least amount of parts.

@bossybilbo That’s a really nice article and great write up on exactly how that speaker behaves in it’s original form.

This is the kind of perspective I think worth having before trying a complete 1:1 capacitor replacement. Don’t overhaul a crossover design you may not want to keep.

Which then brings me to a philosophical issue. Clearly, the new crossover fixes what many of us would see as deficiencies in the original design, but then I immediately have to ask, if you go through the exercise, are you going to be left with a B&W at all? I mean, if you bought the speaker because you wanted the B&W sound, and a speaker that performed like the reviews glorified, is this in the end the speaker you want? Or should you just sell the speakers and get yourself an excellent speaker kit and cabinets which performs as well as B&W you are going to overhaul?

BTW, there are definitely times when a new crossover fixes important impedance problems such as with several Infinity, some Focal and maybe in the future a Kef. In those cases the original frequency response stays about the same but the impedance is no longer as challenging. Worth doing, without hesitation.

@allenf1963 In my mind the vintage AR and modern AR are very different sounding beasts, so be careful to ask which models people are recommending. I find the old AR + B&W to be a terrible but common combination resulting in a sound too lean and lacking meaningful punch. Modern AR sounds almost too neutral.

For vintage tubes you owe it to yourself to listen to Conrad Johnson.  Juicy, great imaging, maybe far too sweet for some.

Hey @allenf1963 - I'm not sure if this is now standard, but the best example of this tube/solid state marriage is with very hard to drive speakers.  Electrostatics for instance are a classic reason for doing this.  A lot of tube amps will wilt in the high frequency range.  Some of my favorite combinations with Martin Logan speakers was with Conrad Johnson pre's and a solid state amp.  Of course, there are exceptions! So this is not an iron clad rule.

For some it's that tube/tube is too much flavor.  Too much euphonics together, so using tube/ss is like half way between. 

FYI,

The white caps are Mundorf MKP.  Their low end film caps.  Quite smooth and dark, most likely in the woofer low pass.  The others are some version of Mundorf Supreme.

B&W as well as Magico are among their big OEM customers. Some of the B&W bookshelf speaker lines were different ONLY by the cap quality.

I personally find Magico and their new new supreme line, the Supreme Evo, to sound splashy, with too much fake color and air.  You can find prices at Madisound or Parts Connexion. 

Personally I'm a bigger fan of Clarity and Jupiter for any top builds I consider.

I just looked. They are all film caps. They will outlive you and me.

Leave them alone. You'll only degrade the value of your speakers.  Get a kit from Madisound and roll it to learn about caps and sound quality.

So, the idea that caps wear out is about the electrolytics. They are wet and tend to dry out over time. Old caps, made in the 80’s and 90’s or before we know would leak/dry out in about 20 years. Newer electrolytics are actually more reliable than that.

In high end speakers these caps are rare but when used are usually for the high values (50 uF or more) and low frequencies because they are cheaper and much much smaller. Find your largest 3 caps and you’ll probably find your electrolytics.

Specifically, these will probably be bi-polar electrolytics, as those again are improved from before. Power supplies use polar electrolytics, which have terminals labelled.

Hey Nyev,

No. Don’t do that. Change your speakers.

B&W 802s use mid-high end Mundorf film caps in most places. They are a distinct part of the B&W’s character. Also, those film caps will last hundreds of years. It’s the electrolytic caps that may go out after 25.

If you want to experiment with capacitor rolling pleeeease don’t use new-ish, high end B&W’s to start with!! 🤣 Get a kit speaker and play with it. You’ll have a lot more fun, do a lot less damage and learn a great deal more.

There are times when I strongly recommend people change their crossovers. Some of the Infinity speakers had notoriously bad impedance curves which new crossovers fix.  Focal uses Solen/Axon and even a modest replacement to Mundorf MKPs is a huge improvement.

In several years you might have to check the electrolytic caps in your speakers.  Until then I'd leave them alone.