Bryan-I have heard most all of the players on your list and I would have to agree with you!! You have been a fountain of information through out this thread and many others(not to mention private emails!), a truly class act audiophile! |
Top Ten Players? This is tough because my system changed so much between listenings that it's hard to say what the exact order should be.
Clearly the three best players are listed below - but under that the order is a little more jumbled based entirely on my system at the time of auditioning. For many of those players listed, I didn't spend the COUNTLESS hours testing interconnects and power cords to tune/tweak to my tastes.
- Lin CD12
- Audio Aero Capitole & Audio Meca Mephisto (tie)
!-- This is where the order starts to get a bit funky ---!
- Accuphase DP75v
- Wadia 860 and 861
- Electrocompaniet EMC-1 Mk II
- Marantz SA-1
- Cary 306/200
- Electrocompaniet EMC-1 Mk I
- Meridian 508.24
- Resolution Audio CD55 |
Hi Farhad - When I first purchased the Mephisto, I had an Elecrocompaniet EC4.5 preamp which has a "balanced/unbalanced" switch. The switch allowed a user to go between the two inputs on the preamp very easily. At that time, I was moving to a new preamp made by Supratek which doesn't have balanced inputs. I was concerned because all my previous systems were balanced only. I didn't like or trust RCA - single ended cables. Whether it be because the XLRs fit better, looked cooler or were just different, I don't know, I just always used balanced.
To make the comparison, I installed two runs of Nordost Quattro Fil. One was balanced and the other was single ended. To make a long story short, I heard no difference in sonic character between the two interconnects. Using balanced cables produces a 6db increase in gain but...that was really all the difference I could hear.
Balanced cables are VERY good for LONG runs as they have better rejection of RFI but I don't think they sound better or worse as a general rule of thumb.
RCA cables are annoying. They either fit too tight or don't fit tight enough. XLR's are very convenient. In all honesty, I would prefer to use XLR simply because it connects better but I wouldn't expect it to make my system sound better unless I had a cable run that was longer than 3 or 4 meters (which I do not).
Now that I use all RCA cables, I can honestly say it that to me, the performance of RCA is just as good as balanced. |
Lordgorian thanks for the correction..and ya'll know what i mean...if the reviewers were as intriguing and honest ( but maybe Bwhite has the trained ear and the reviewers are still in training? or are they trying to support the INDUSTRY and thereby keep their plush jobs??) as Bwhite then maybe we would TEND to buy whats best for US... MORE often. |
Bwhite..I can't thank you enough for your honest replies. You are one of the few audiophiles who know what they are talking about. But, there is one important thing about the Mephisto, you didn't specify if your comparison was on the balanced output or the RCA output. I hope if you can give a brief comparison between both outputs. Which has more weight and how different are both of them in sound character and which one offers more musical experience than the other. I also would appreciate it alot if you can state in order your favorite or the best top 10 high end CD players that you ever heard. Thank you agian for your nice helpful comments.. |
Michael Fremmer writes for stereophile..... |
The audio critic Mr M Fremmer of the Absolute Sound recently got a letter concerning his review of the HOVLAND pre SAPHIRE ..blasting his overzealous review. Mr Fremmer blasted back. But i must say Fremmer is learning. His review of the KORA Cosmos vs Audio Research VT200 was to me a more honest review compared to the idiots at Sterophile...MUDDLEHEADS! Heck all "professional" audio critics could learn alot from Bwhite on how to review with honest clarity. Bwhite's reviews are the real thing.. the others are jokes but they're not funny. |
Because of this thread, I've learned more about these three great players than in any magazine or online review I've ever read. Good job AudiogoNers! |
Maybe I can explain more... If the Mephisto were to be connected to a Krell preamp and Krell amplifier, I doubt anyone would complain about bass output. The Krell's would do their share of compensation.
If we connect the Audio Aero to the same Krell's... the bass output might be more extended.
But... is it realistic? Doubtful.
Now remove the Krells and insert a Conrad Johnson Preamp and a low wattage Jadis amplifier. You will loose bass extension... In this case, the Mephisto would be too soft in the bass but so would the Audio Aero - even though it would be a bit better than the Mephisto.
Is this realistic? Doubtful.
The key to sonic perfection is more about system synergy - the sum of the whole - than any single component by itself. If we look at a system composed entirely of the highest rated components, it could very easily be "over the top" and quite unlistenable - just as easily as it could be simply not enough.
Without knowing your system I can only presume that you are concerned that if you should happen to buy a Mephisto the bass would simply vanish or not be enough to satisfy your tastes. This is not necessarily true. If your system is well matched (amp has enough power to drive your speakers - and a REALLY GOOD preamp) you will have good bass. IF your system is not well matched or perhaps you have a situation where the amp can barely drive the speakers, then the Mephisto will not add any bass - it won't remove bass either.
Does this make sense??? |
Farhad, the Mephisto doesn't exactly "lack" bass - it's output does seems softer than the Audio Aero when using similar interconnects and power cords.
Changing the interconnects around produces more or less bass perceived bass on each of these units.
For instance, I found for both of these players, I liked to use Audio Note Kondo KSL between the CD and Preamp. For the Mephisto, I liked a pair of NBS Statement between the preamp and amp... This gave fantastic dynamics - superior detail and created a certain silence between notes. Strong and accurate bass.
Using the same interconnects on the Audio Aero gave me too much resolution - it was less comfortable to listen to. And seemed a bit "harsh" - Acoustic bass was bigger sounding but not quite accurate. So I swapped out the NBS Statement for a Stealth PGS. The PGS smoothed out some of the detail and added a softer quality to the music, taking some of the edge off - bass was diminished ever so slightly by seeming a bit less overpowering and so were the overall dynamics. As a result the soundstage tightened and became more focused. I felt that the PGS was a better match for the Audio Aero than the NBS was. But may not be the perfect IC for this combo. It would take more time to decide.
So far, I am totally undecided whether or not a CD player is the upgrade to make if you seek increased bass. While we all want all the frequencies I have found that most every high end CD player out there will help a system to produce its optimal level of bass only when the right associated interconnects and power cords are used.
Neglecting that will result in limited performance of your CD player - regardless of which one you choose.
As audiophiles we want it all - we want WEIGHT in our music and Transparency... We want Macrodynamics and Microdynamics... we want speed we want pace and timing, we want inner-detail and outer extension. It is very difficult to get everything - which makes this hobby such a challenge. Live music is capable of producing everything but very few high end systems are.
This is why tweaking with the right interconnects and powercords is mandatory at this level of audio-perfection. It takes time and patience but ultimately pays off in results.
Does this make sense? |
Bwhite you have made some nice comments about the three players, and believe me no one has put the words better than you to describe the players with every single detail.
But, I have one thing in mind which is very important to me. I love musical, hologram, involving, life like and analog sounding presentaion. From what you mentioned I have the feeling that the Mephisto will suit my taste. But, I'm also a person who can not live without bass, I'm talking about natural extended deep bass not overblown boomy kind of bass. I hope you know what I mean. Since, you have been very helpful with your comments, from what I have understood is that the Mephisto lacks the ability for producing punchy bass that delivers straight to the heart not the mind. Could you please verify this matter, thank you.. |
Thanks Tweekerman that was very nice of you! I just try to call it like I hear it. The thread got a little side tracked with all the high(er) end discussion and I apologize for that.
I will provide a "review" on this tread of the Keops when I get it. My friend has a Mephisto so I'll compare the Keops to it.
I know in your post you asked for a CDP with good bottom end extension. But have you tried an aftermarket power cord on your Orchestra? if so, which one? Also - what interconnects and speaker cables are you using? And of course, what speakers?. |
Mr.Bwhite should have a review page here on audiogon. Very open clear and honest opinions. Very unlike the "professional" reviewers. They are just like restaurant crictics they HAVE TO SAY mostly good to keep their jobs. Bwhite brings us a better understanding of these legendary digital units that most of us have not heard much less will ever own. But if I had the bucks its from Bwhites comparison review of three excellent products that i would make the best choice for me. |
S2K_dude - When I stated, "Upon removing the Mephisto from my system and connecting the Sony DVP-9000ES I didn't immediately notice a difference." Was based on the fact that I was standing in the front of my room, between the speakers. It didn't take any longer than walking away from my rack to the sofa to realize that I needed to buy another Mephisto. |
bwhite: i read with interest your statement that "Upon removing the Mephisto from my system and connecting the Sony DVP-9000ES I didn't immediately notice a difference." given the mephisto's first tier credentials (and price), i would expect the differences between that player and the 9000 to be immediately apparent on redbook cds. further, the typical reviews of the mephisto praise its delicacy and inner-detail, in contrast to the typically opposite complaints about the sony, which point to its dry digital sound (i own one too btw). shouldn't these players should be night and day?
my faith in the digital high-end is at stake here so please elaborate on your comments. :) |
Hi Fahad, I still do swear by the Mephisto. Not only is it a fantastic SOUNDING player, it is also a beautiful piece of art to display in your home.
I had to sell because of taxes. Plus I spent a few dollars on a pair of LAMM monoblocks at about that time. Something had to go - and I decided to sell the Mephisto in the hopes that I could buy another down the road some day. I figured I could get by with my Sony DVP-9000ES for a while.
Upon removing the Mephisto from my system and connecting the Sony DVP-9000ES I didn't immediately notice a difference. But when I sat down and listened - there was something missing. The involvement was GONE! I tried to sit and experience the music like I had in the past and it was impossible. no emotion, no feeling.. just cold notes being thrown at me by the system that moved me only days before.
So... I decided to try the Keops in a hopes that at least the same family character, feeling and emotion remains in this less expensive unit. It should be at my place on Sunday - I will give a brief review once I've listened for a while.
The down side of the Mephisto is the faint "high pitched digital noise" that it can make if you shut off the power supply frequently. The noise usually goes away in most systems after two hours (up to a day in some cases). The best solution for this and what works for most people is to just leave the Mephisto on all the time. Shutting off the unit discharges something and the faint high pitch sound comes back for a while. This sound is usually filtered out at the preamp but it was audible in my system only with the volume control turned ALL THE WAY DOWN. When I turned the volume up just a hair, the sound went away. Strange!
Piere Lurne' is aware of the problem and has a fix for this. It is a new board which can be installed by Audiomeca or the distributor.
Over time, a Mephisto can track slower. Piere recommends cleaning the lens to resolve this problem.
The DB9 Power cord which carries unrectified DC current from the power supply to the CD Player (where it is rectified) is lame looking - cheap and similar to the monitor cable on your computer. Piere does have a few aftermarket DB9 cables and I think plans to introduce a better cable soon. I tried everything I could find that would fit and nothing seemed to sound better or worse.
The Mephisto can sound "lazy" to some people who are more accustomed to CD players which emphasize the top and bottom vs. everything in between. The Mephisto on its own picks out everything in the middle and makes it sound spectacular.
It is interesting but as a result of this, you will find enjoyment in listening at much lower volume levels than usual because at these levels the dynamics aren't possible anyway - and the Mephisto will deliver more inner detail than you've ever heard.
Now... this is important!! The Mephisto can be dramatically altered with the right power cord. If you like ADDED DYNAMICS, try an NBS Statement power cord. It will make the Mephisto sound much more like the Electrocompaniet or AudioAero units in the dynamics department without loosing its inner delicacy or sounding electronic. Amazing.
If you like a more polite sound. Try a Shunyata King Cobra V1. It will add a bit of color which further emphasizes the analogesque qualities of the Mephisto. Soothing - deep and involving!
Hope this helps |
Bwhite, why did you sell the Mephisto. You used to sware by the player. Doesn't the Mephisto fullfill your listenning needs? Didn't the Mephisto used to be the answer to all digital gears? Is there any drawbacks or disadvantages about the player. Thank you.. |
Bwhite, please share you opinion of the Keops once you have a fix on it. |
Oh.. yes.. By the way.. I had to sell my Mephiso. :( I am not happy about it but taxes came due and I had just purchased a pair of LAMM M1.1's at the time - so I needed cash. Unfortunately I did not find the digital answer or break the tie.
I have however purchased an Audiomeca Keops to keep me going until I can afford a new player. I am wondering how it compares to the other players... as it costs a lot less. |
Okay... Guess I'll chime in here. I've owned all three. And they are all fantastic players whichever player you ultimately choose, you cannot go wrong.
The Electrocompaniet is similar to the Audio Aero and the Audio Aero is similar to the Mephisto but the Electrocompaniet and Mephisto are quite different. Does that make sense?
With the EMC-1, I felt a rush of energy and vibrance in my system that I had never experienced before. There were details in the music that I'd never heard - sometimes I'd wonder if the details I was hearing were even on the CD!! But ultimately the EMC-1 sounds a bit more electronic than the next two players. Of the three players, the EMC-1 is the least emotional and hence doesn't have the passion of the AA or AM. This is not to say it has no emotion - it just has a bit less than the other players. The EMC-1 has a bigger soundstage than the others.
The Audio Aero sounds similar to the EMC-1 in that it has comparable dynamics and punch but sounds a bit less electronic or mechanical and a wee bit more seductive. None of the detail is missing it just presents itself differently. The sound stage presented by the AA wasn't quite as big as the EMC-1. The AA makes things a little more intimate and defines the players in a more realistic way.
The Audiomeca Mephisto takes the seduction presented by the Audio Aero to another level but in doing this seems to loose some of the dynamics and punch. The Mephisto takes an additional step toward sounding less electronic. The Mephisto has an incomparable delicacy and 3D sound stage.
The three players all have their issues too...
On the EMC-1, sometimes the buttons on the face plate will stick when you manually flip through the tracks by depressing the button. In order to fix, you will have to remove the faceplate.
On the Audio Aero, sometimes it forgets if its door is closed or open. The unit actually sounds better with the door open but when you put in a new CD, you will have to close the door and then re-open to get it to initialize.
The Mephisto II can be slower to track and initialize a disk than the other players. Also, it produces a high pitched digital noise which can be heard through some systems - but only when there is no volume. Once the volume is turned up, the noise goes away... weird! The noise is usually filtered out at the preamp on most systems. There is a fix however - but requires a new board.
Ultimately I cannot recommend one of these players above the other. It is more about your listening preference than anything else. They're all great. Some people listen at different levels than others and the level you listen at will dictate your preference.
To me, there is a difference between violinists. Some have soul and emotion...others do not. CD players are the same way. |
Thing is i much prefer the european labs |
yeah well for ONCE we do get a good deal. You should see the prices of american gear over here, its absolutely ridiculous. In general, you x 2 the american price and you get the French price.
Cheers
Bad |
So few SACD's avaliable, i don't know about you but i'm pickey when it comes to classical performances. The new Capitole is ONLY $5K in France I guess the US has import duties LUCKY YOU! |
Ok im down to two CDPlayers, the New audio aero capitole and the Accuphase 85.. both play amazingly well... Problem is price. The new AA Capitole is $5000 here in France, and the Accuphase 85 is a whooping $10k !!!! So i could buy two AA Capitole for 1 Accuphase 85.... but i do get the SACD bonus with the accuphase...decisions, decision. |
...after I heard the Keops, I sold my Meridian 506.20 CDP and I bought the Audiomeca...very analog-like sound!...good bass extension and excellent highs...plus the looks!...my wife loved it!...i don't think you can go wrong with any of the three, but my vote goes to the Keops...good luck! |
A S O S you've hit on something here. RELIABLITITY My friends $3K CDP broke. Was NEW!! My $600 CDP broke as well. Was NEW!! I'm sure the AA and AM are reliable units but if the Electro unit qualifies for the additional word VERY then that answers my CDP quest. |
This may help you in your search for the ultimate digital experience. The Audio Aero and the EMC 1 with 24/192 upgrade are more like each other than they are like the Mephisto 2.
I personally like the Mephisto 2 and use one in my own personal system. But 8 out of 10 times when we do an A/b in the store the customer purchases the EMC 1.
Granted there is a price difference but not as large as there use to be.
The EMC 1 has spectacular dynamics, pace and unbelieveable soundstage. The Mephisto 2 is very delicate with lots of finesse and seductiveness. I personally love the sound of the Mephisto 2 as previously mentioned but you have to be careful what you mate the Mephisto with more so than the EMC 1. Also personal preference is always critical but especially when you get to players this good.
I believe what has made the EMC 1 such a hit is that it even at $5000 is a bargain. The new Audio Aero will be $8800 and I am waiting with bated breath to see if the price jump improves the performance and aesthetics to justify such a price.
The big advantages of the EMC 1 is that it is built like a tank weighs 50 pounds. The bottom end is the best of any player. Dealers can never get enough of them we are lucky to get 2 every 6 weeks - - supply and demand - - And although not gorgeous like the Mephisto 2 it does have a classy appearance. The player is also very reliable. |
I forgot to mention that I bought some pucks and pods from Audiolabhawaii.com that worked wonderfully under my EMC-1 cdp. These pucks and pods are inexpensive isolation devices that are better than other isolation devices that I have used (much superior than Black Diamond Racing Cones). I believe these devices will work well under most cdps, pre-amps, and amps. |
You can read lots of threads and many have said wonderful things about the EMC-1, Aero Capitol, Accuphase, and Mephisto. I would also place the BAT VK5 SE and Arye in this arena. If you are like me and price is a definate factor, it is my opinion that the EMC-1 is a quality player for the money (much less than the other cdps that are mentioned in the same breath). The EMC-1 has been around for awhile and is generally liked by many.
Just to let you know that I attended CES 2002 and saw new cdps that will be introduced by Gamut and Arye for under $3K retail. These are both 24/192. |
I bought a used Prima for the system in my study (Rogue Tempest Magnum, Spendor S3/5s) and liked it so much that I bought the Capitole for the main rig. Haven't heard the Keops or EMC so I can't give you a comparasion.
BTW, seem to recall seeing Bwhite has listed his Mephisto for sale, so I guess he broke the tie. |
Hey Patmatt if you go to audioreview and look up EMC1 you'll find 33 beautiful gut-soul-praises of this unit.(and i think these are about the MK1 model). But are you sure about the Mephisto's performance? Most important here in this case, what were the speakers amp cables and how many cd's did you listen to? How's the Capitole? But its $8K!!! I think what you are trying to convey is, go EMC1 and i'll be very happy for a very long time. |
I've heard both. Personally, I didn't like the Mephisto. I thought it sounded too soft, too lush. It definetly didn't have the weight or focus of the Electrocompaniet. As far as detail, soundstage, and decay- it doesn't get much better this side of SACD than the Electro. Plus, it seems to be an open window to the delicacy and weight that well recorded music offers. If the recording isn't good however, don't fool yourself. You can only polish a turd so much. Save your bucks, get the EC and go for the upgrade as soon as you can afford it. You can thank me later. |
Yea Al if you read what fellow audiogonner Bwhite says about the Capitole and the Mephisto he breaks all rules and gives both THE GOLD. Both out of my reach. Thanks for the offer on the EMC1 but right now i' squeeeezzed on $$$. |
All good choices. I know a guy who sold his ECM-1 MKII for an Audio Aero Mephisto. That is the player to get. I have a brand new ECM-1 that I might be moving out soon to get a Mephisto. Any interest, let me know. Granite Audio also makes very good players. Good luck.
AL |
