Audiogon members poor packing and shipping damage


Need to get this off my chest and hope it will help other members avoid shipping damage claims. I recently purchased a preamp and a pair of Magnepan 3.7 speakers off Audiogon. I am going to keep this general and leave out the member names. Both items arrived damaged and IMHO the root cause is largely very poor and careless packing.

The 3.7's had the ends of the box secured with one narrow piece of strapping tape on each end which came off during shipping and the ends of the box flapping wide open along with the outer box loose where it should have been taped. With the preamp the seller did not bother to remove the tubes or install the protective screws on the bottom that protect the internals from shipping damage.

In both instances I have taken on trying to get the problems resolved, so far at my expense, and I am just aggravated at having to do this.

I would never think of letting any piece of audio equipment leave my house so poorly packed. I routinely take hours to carefully pack and also to document the entire process with digital pics so if there are any issues with shipping I have good documentation. If you read my feedback it reflects the extra effort I take. No one will ever be able to say there was shipping damage due to my poor packing job and no box I pack is going to arrive open.

I don't know how other Audiogon members feel about this or how many other members have experienced this problem but I just want to point out that sellers have an obligation to the buyers to pack the items correctly. As we all know shipping damage claims are a super pain for all involved and especially the buyer. Right now I've got one claim going with a major shipping company and it will be weeks if I am lucky to get a resolution and my money back and also get the 3.7's back from the factory.

Just a ton of inconvenience and aggravation when I should have been able to unpack, set up, and enjoy.
etmerritt33

Showing 2 responses by mitch2

A good seller packages items to withstand the worst conceivable handling for the item being shipped. This should be considered a two-way street in that there is nothing wrong with the buyer taking an interest in how an item is go be packaged, especially something heavy, big, and/or fragile.

Buyers should ask how the seller intends to package their newly purchased item, whether the original manufacturer's packaging will be used, and what shape that packaging is in. If an item has been shipped many times, the once good original packaging may no longer be adequate. I received a "new demo" NAT Symmetrical preamp (an expensive, large and quite heavy preamp) in a "wood box." Believe me, there is a world of difference between the Lamm amps I have received in their foam lined, braced, wood boxes, and this crappy NAT packaging. The preamp was essentially riding loose with minimal pieces of broken styrofoam inside of a broken thin particle board enclosure. There were not even any braces at the corners or edges - sheet rock screws drilled through small metal angles and, in some cases, drilled directly into the edges of the thin particle board, were the only supports holding the box together! And yes, the preamp was damaged when received. In this case I had asked the seller specifically about the quality of the packaging and was assured by the seller, who is an audio dealer, that the packaging was excellent. Within a day I had contacted the seller and sent digital pictures of the damage. After some negotiation, the preamp was returned.

I also agree with Elizabeth's 7-day rule. If you will not be available to take shipment, then have the seller delay sending the item. What if it arrives pancaked? Do you want the delivery person to simply drop it off on your porch? A responsible buyer should arrange to be available to receive shipment or at least to verify the condition within a day of arrival. The item should be auditioned and verified to work properly within a day, and no more than 3 days, of receiving shipment. Buying a used item from the internet is different than taking a shipment of a pair of jeans from Macy's. The buyer needs to understand the two-way communication necessary to create a win-win for both parties. Ideally, both buyer and seller need to be on their game, not only to prevent scams, etc., but simply as a matter of mutual respect.

Ask about double boxing if you belive that may be necessary. Lamm industries does not recommend shipping using any other method than FedEx Saver - which is a 3-day air method. The big shippers use third-party truckers for ground shipping and there is no QA as to how the package will be treated. Sure, air shipping methods cost extra money, but my experience is the items are handled with more care and arrive sooner (so less time in the shipper's hands), resulting in less risk of damage.

Finally, never ship big speakers solely in the manufacturer's packaging. Put them on a pallet and have them trucked. The incident of damage is just too common. Even for medium speakers, provide a minimum of auxillary packaging to protect them from drops etc. The heavier and bulkier an item is, the more likely an incident where it is dropped or falls off the dreaded conveyor.

These are my personal observations and practices and except for some early lessons learned the hard way, they have served me very well.
This is turning into an excellent thread to help newer members understand the risks associated with buying and selling online, and steps they can take to avoid problems. The collective experience here is impressive. Unfortunately, we are mostly "preaching to the choir," since the folks on this thread are not the ones causing the problems.
IMO, the collective quotes below are priceless as a guide to staying out of trouble when buying and selling on this site;
I routinely take hours to carefully pack and also to document the entire process with digital pics so if there are any issues with shipping I have good documentation. If you read my feedback it reflects the extra effort I take.
It is the sellers obligation to properly package all items to withstand the stresses of shipping.
A little extra thought and effort, plus a few dollars in extra shipping materials, could have prevented all of this hassle.
I go out of my way to OVER package and make sure the item will arrive in perfect shape.
If you must use foam peanuts, the ONLY appropriate place is between the two boxes.
I place high value on original manufacturer packaging, yes it adds to the buying cost, but it's worth it. If you tried to save some dough by buying something cheaper that doesn't have all of it's original packaging....well, you learned the hard way.
I do not accept damaged items.
If it's well packed in original shipping container and damage occurs, the seller should be able to collect on the insurance. DO NOT ship it back without contacting the seller, or the insurance he purchased would become invalid.
The buyer needs to have some responsibility here. I think they need to thoroughly inspect the item within 48 hours of delivery.
I usually look for items with original packaging and members with excellent feedback to help eliminate this issue.
When i ship i make certain the item can be used as a football in a really ROUGH game, or dropped 20 feet. Because both have happened to stuff i got. And yeah the idiots who stick a heavy item in a box of loose peanuts wins the idiot award every time.
Best for the buyer to confirm details of how gear will be shipped with the seller beforehand just to be sure.
I put fragile labels everywhere, with heavy insurance, things get thrown harder. I witnessed it numerous times from the conveyors, the trucks, to the doorstep. Pack well or pay later.
The buyer has to assume some liability in this transaction and checking the gear out promptly should be expected.
UPS generally only pays damage claims on electronics if the item is shipped in the manufacturers boxes and uses all he manufacturers packing materials.
So, any buy is risky unless picked up and the seller demo's the item before your cash is in his hand.
If I do not have the original packing materials I pay FedEx or UPS to pack the items in order that if I need to place a claim they can't claim that the item was improperly packed.
there is nothing wrong with the buyer taking an interest in how an item is going be packaged, especially something heavy, big, and/or fragile.
never ship big speakers solely in the manufacturer's packaging. Put them on a pallet and have them trucked.
It's both parties responsibility but the buyer is the one most likely to suffer in the case of a problem, so a smart buyer will make sure everything is in line with the seller to best assure safe shipping and perhaps insurance before the item is shipped, ideally before even paid for. If a seller would not cooperate with me on this, then I would look for another seller.
You'd have to more than a few screws loose if you just stick something haphazardly in a box and send it on its merry way.
The bottom line is that the buyer does have to take some responsibility in the transaction.
You gotta do your own homework or be prepared to gamble a bit.
Audiogon terms clearly state it's the sellers responsibility to get the item to you in the condition advertised.
I've learned through bitter experience not to take pp funded via a credit card. The seller has NO PROTECTION. You don't even get the gear back.
in fairness, weird stuff does happen in shipping--i.e. meticulously packaged gear from reputable sellers which arrives mysteriously broken.
I think some of these problems should just be looked at as part of the discount inherent in buying used equipment. If you're not buying from professionals, then you shouldn't expect professional level service. At best you should expect well intentioned, talented amateur level quality. It's important to remember that even for simple tasks repetition leads to increased competence.
I will caution that original packing is not always all its cracked up to be, esp if:
1. Its old.
2. It's been shipped back and forth across the country 20X
3. It's been left in a damp basement and the corrugated has started to soften up.
As a practical matter as part of negotiation include details of your expectations about shipping.
I feel little sympathy for those who try to save extra money by buying items without proper packaging who later get a shipping *surprise*. Cheaper is not always the best way to go.
In summary, as a buyer it is best to;
1.Buy from experienced sellers, or accept the potential for additional risks,
2.Communicate directly with the seller and take an active role in how your new item will be packaged and shipped, and
3.Be available to inspect the item upon arrival and promptly contact the seller if there are problems.