I would wait on any upgrades until you have had the speakers for a while..get to know them kind of thing. Mine are five feet out with no toe-in and 8 feet between MRT's. My room is 27'X 23' with the speakers on the 27' wall and tip-back is the same as yours.
I started out with bi-wire setup, rear switch in normal position sounded best..Krell Ksa-250 in this setup. I now have a passive bi-amp setup on them, Krell Ksa-250 on the bass panels and Krell Kav-500 on the MRT's.
This was a huge gain in every department and I now like the rear panel switch in the high position which I thought was a little bright before (on some recordings).
My next step will be an active bi-amp setup with a good active crossover..still doing research but will Keep the Ksa-250 on the bass panels as it has complete control with no hint of strain.
I would get rid of the cheap jumpers at the very least and pull them out to around 4 feet from the wall. I don't know much about your amp but it would seem to be a little weak in the power supply for outstanding bass response. My Ksa-250 will double down to .5 ohms, I still had a big gain in the bass department when I went to bi-amp setup..that tells you something about the Duetta Sig's.
Dave |
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Duettas are very forgiving when it comes to placement. That is, compared to other Apogees. I had mine all over the place without noticing major sound shifts. With my Scintillas, that is another matter entirely. The position you have them now is really a good one. It's easy to experiment. I would follow Sogood's advice and move them out to four feet just to see. Your amp is perfectly adequate.
I am using one small digital Acoustic Reality eAR for my Scintillas. This amp does it all. I have a better bass than even a Krell can muster, mids the equal of the best tube amps, and highs are sweet. Detail is way beyond all conventional amps, and the leading edge is instantaneous.
Unfortunately, there is no state side support available. |
My amps power suppy (The ASR Emitter One Exclusive) is enclosed in a separate chassis. It also has a pure dc battery supply that powers the preamp section. The amp can provide 2 x 700 watts at 1 ohm so I don't think it is lacking. The suggestion of moving the speaker out to 4 feet makes sense. The backwave from the panel may be bouncing off the rear wall and since it is out of phase with the front wave launch it could be partially canceling the bass energy as it meets it in the front of the speaker.
The jumpers I know have to go, It's just hard to spend another 1800 for another set of cables.
Thanks for the feedback. |
Hi Darrell
Didn't mean to sound like your amp did not have enough power, My point was more of a reference to the speakers. The Ksa-250's output into one ohm load is almost three times greater than your amp..yet when the speakers were bi-amped their bass response improved right along with the mids and highs. This has led me to beleave that even a more powerful amp than the Ksa-250 (the Ksa 300s comes to mind) could improve bass response even more. Just something to keep in mind down the road as we explore these great speakers.
Dave |
Darrell,
With all due respect to Sogood51, I beg to differ on one point, unless you are planning on moving to active bi-amping, I would recommend you upgrade the crossover. Since you already have the components, an afternoon's work will be handsomely rewarded by more clarity, more definition and detail, and better soundstaging. Also I found that mounting the crossover on an external panel independent of and placed behind the speaker (I use maple planks) makes a huge improvement in the sound. It is relatively easy to A/B this (once the front has been removed) by detacting the stock crossover and listening. I believe all but the inductor for the bass is mounted on one piece of hard board and this board can easily dismounted from the speaker w/o disconnecting the wiring---I think 2 screws and silicon glue are all that hold it in place. Also I found that replacing the stock pikes with stainless steel cones makes a significant improvement in the sound---this has been probably the most cost effective tweak I've come across. |
LOL Muralman. If Duettas are so forgiving when it comes to placement then why did Darrell choose to make this post? Is he an idiot or just plain stupid like the rest of us former Apogee owners? |
Khrys, only you would read "stupid" into my intentions. All I am saying is the Duetta's embracing sound is far easier to coax than the Stage, or Scintilla, having owned both. It is common knowledge among Apogee lovers the Scintilla and Stage are a lot more mischievous.
I was a Stage owner before I heard my first Duetta. Both DSig speakers were against the wall, one elevated six feet. They had bee crammed into a bedroom. Immediately, despite the negative placement, I could sense the warm, friendly DSig personality.
I got them home, set them up to something similar as Darrel's room configuration, and enjoyed the music. I tried different set ups, to no advantage. That is my experience.
Note that Darrell has asked advice to maximize his Duetta's performance. He seems open to all advice. Since I am a component wonk, I naturally will suggest a change in amp. To answer Darrell's other questions, I am not a fan of dissembowling the Apogee. I would not buy an Apogee that has been modded. I know a person who worked for Apogee for fourteen years that agrees with me. Wires should be of 12 gauge ore higher. Following Bloom's advice, I always bicable my Apogees when I can.
My room is symmetrical. Speaker placement will be complicated in an asymmetrical room. Experimentation is the only recourse.
That is my humble opinion (based on experience). |
Thanks for the tips! I moved them out from the front wall to the recommended 48". This seemed to help the bass and if I'm correct, seemed to deepen the sound stage quite a bit! The upgrade kit contains some big mama inductors 2" x 4-7/8", 2 x 3-3/4", and 2 x 2-1/2". If anyone has done this mod, will all of these fit inside along with the 14 Auri caps?????
If I build something external, I don't want it to look to micky mouse.
Also, RlXl;
Please tell me more about the speaker cones as I think the factory legs just kinda float on top of my carpeting. Where did you get them? Pictures of your speakers with the cones would be great!
The suggestion of bi-wiring is something I definately will try!
Thanks! |
My advice in regards to the X-over upgrade assumed that Darrell is a new owner of these speakers. This is why I said it would be best to get to know the speakers first. If for some reason he would not keep the speakers..no great loss on resale. The only pair of Duetta Signatures that have been for sale for a very long time here on Audiogon are the pair with the X-over upgrade.
If his plan is to keep them for a long time, then by all means upgrade and don't worry about resale value. I know that when I was in the market for mine I only wanted mint/stock model.
Dave |
My Duetta Sigs had been owned by two others before me, and have traveled through two hands since. I think most Apogee buyers will gravitate towards stock models, unless they know the history of the mod. While owning the Duettas, I tirelessly watched for any Scintilla sale. To me, the Scintilla is the ultimate upgrade. |
Muralman, what frosts you most?: that most Apogee owners ditched them or that the company went out of business?(you think these events might be related?). If, as you insist, that Scintillas amplified by the new Euro-norm class D amps represent the state of the art then surely their resurrection is imminent. With breath barely bated more than yours, I await that anachronistic travesty with earnest. |
Way off topic, you dredging up old history. Almost all Apogees will have to be pulled from their dead owner's hands. Except possibly for old Quads, I don't know of a more coveted line of discontinued speakers.
The Apogee is so great a speaker, there are individuals that are working hard to resurrect the technology. For instance, Graz of Down Under is presently building a full range ribbon speaker to order. With far more powerful magnets and advanced crossover technology available, the new speakers will be more efficient, and dynamic. You can breathe now.
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Hi Darrell,
I ordered the cones from Ed Soler here on Audiogon. He is an excellent person to deal with, and knows the Duettas. His moniker is esoler. Good listening!!!! |
Thank you all for your excellent help!!! One more question please.
Which would be the best audible improvement: Installing the crossover upgrade OR purchasing an Apogee external DAX ????
Once again, Thanks for your advice!!!!!!!!! |
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The best thing you can do is BI-WIRE these speakers. Of everything I tried with these it made the buggest difference in sound.... |
