I'm thinking I need a less high arm mass than the Ziricote 22gr. arm wand.
I don't like the additional warmth I'm getting through the whole spectrum (wave band) and I'm starting to guess this is due to the high arm mass.
IMHO the best solution .. if I want to choose for the Reed 12" - Benz LP combo .. is the Red Cedar arm wand .. that is about 14gr. arm mass.
With this arm mass I'm sure I won't get the additional warmth , and I 'll get only the positive attributes of the 12" inches arm.. and in this case the fantastic detail , inner detail and soundstage of this Reed 12" inches.
I like alot the Benz LP sound and there is no reason to change cartridge.
On the contrary I 'll search for the best arm for it.
This is a fixed point for me.
|
Curio,
I think it's a case of matching issue, probably too much of one flavour, lets call it "Yin". I had heard Benz LP in the past which i recall as being refined, smooth and a touch laid back and I had TW Raven 1 in the past too. And i now use a 12 inch Reed 2A(cedar wand) with Lyra Delos or a modified Denon 103R with Midas aluminium body + Expert stylus' sapphire cantilebver and paratrace stylus. The later 2 cartriges give me the energy and dynamic to go with the nice tone and big sound.
You might need consider cartrige change or one with Panzerholz wand to bring back the sound balance that you like or may be the Reed is just not the right arm for your Benz/TW R1/system/taste. |
Dear Curio: The tonearm effective mass certainly is important but IMHO the build material ( arm wand/headshell ) and the " signature " resonance along the cartridge body build material is critical.
The Ziricote and Red Cedar even than both are wood I think that's its signature with the cartridge performance sound is different and the only way to know if you will like it is that you hear both ( wood arm wans. ) in your system.
I totally agree with Geoch: we need ( first than all. ) the best source we can get and then matched tonearm.
The LP is very fine cartridge but maybe with a wood tonearm there is to much of the same.
In your system there is no way that any of us could give you a precise advise about tonearm. With any cartridge ( in your saystem ) IMHO you have to test several tonearms till you find the right for you.
In the other side I'm saying that assuming that each one audio link in your system is neutral, accurate, matched and with right overall set up. If not then as Geoch point out could be other " factors " where you now are hearing its " influences " when before you was unaware: if this is the " probelm " well you need to solve identified where comes those " colorations/distortions " and try to fix it.
A tonearm IMHO is a tool and must be ideally a neutral tool with out itself sound/colorations/distortions to make more easy the cartridge match. This is more easy to say it that to find out.
Today, outside/commercial is there a best tonearm?, not yet there are several very good designs and that's all. What we can find is a best cartridge/tonearm combination and what IMHO you are/should looking for is that tonearm that could help your LP cartridge can shows at its best and this is a " job " that needs time, patience, know how and opportunities to bring/have different tonearm " on hand ".
Of course this is if you are looking for Excellence level.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Curio, I provided the new web site for the Reed so you
should first look for the data regarding the eff. mass of
the different wood kinds. I ordered the Reed 2A, 12" with Pernambucco wood tube (27 gr.) a year of so ago. But I intended to use this 'heavy mass' with a cart with very
low compliance (Phase Tech P-3G). So I am very happy with
this combo. I am not sure what Raul thinks about this co-
relation between eff.mass and cart compliance but I do check the 'abvious' whenever I consider a new tonearm.
That is why I thought that the Red Cedar would make a good
combo with your Benz LP. BTW I use Benz Ruby 3S with my Triplanar VII and this cart is identical with the LP except
for the wood corpus.
Regards, |
Hi Curio,
A Lexan platter mat would be helpful to bring back some vividness.
But in this case the cartridge is boring! so, it can compensates for the Technoarm's inherent confusion & everyone is happy again!
My experience with this cartridge in my Pluto 9A, was exactly as your's in your Reed 3Q. I asure you : you are hearing the Benz LP. And you don't like it. That Raul has the proper arm for her, it is not irelevant, once you have also the Technoarm that matched well. Well...Does this mean that Technoarm betters the Reed 3Q ? I think it is clear that one can find some kind of balance in one way or another :
The Cardas cables behaves as the same medicine when someone trying to match a SS amp with ESL speakers. (Same contribution as the Benz LP).
A solid core Silver cable somehow resonates with similar results (of the Technoarm) : lacks soundstage & inner depth but it's forward projection adds a directness that can cheat you to prefer a Telefunken or a Mullard tube over an RCA or Sylvania, when the right tube is the Siemens.
The mixing & matching decisions must always have a point of reference, a component of a high enough standard, that we accept it as indispensable for building our system around it. If you choose the Benz LP as your unquestionable reference, (that means your system somewhere needs a shutter) then, the Reed 3Q is acting like the soft British tube in an allready overly warm preamp. No wonder why, a flat-lean cartridge in a wood body on a 12" wood arm tube, results in "overboring" performance (for a lack of a more precise word). Can anyone acuse the arm ? Sure, (as often the casual listener acuse the stethoscope relentless penetration of a compression driver but not the upstream components behind it).
In my belief, I think that the source must be of the highest resolution : the most detailed & nuanced, like a surgical instrument with the utmost precision & at this hunting, (of turntables & cartridges) the easy, calm & effortless performance (with great tonality) of the 12"Reed 3Q arm is the unmistakable indication of it's rightness. Simultaneously, this behaviour is necessary for an arm, as it can push further the apparent capacity, living more space for a credible cartridge evaluation. It can permits the most dynamic, speedy & razor sharp (but unforgiving) cartridge, to release it's scale & gives what other cartridges, (or any other component) cannot offer to our system. Wouldn't be a shame to downsize here, -at the very start of the signal- and afterwards to seek in desperation for (ie): power cables, to deliver what is permanently lost at the begining?
Something in this specific set-up acts as the limiting factor, -filtering the delicacy of inner detail, -doesn't move your senses, -can not engage your emotions. Is it the Technoarm? No! Even if it is the weakest link in the chain, It can only pass the cartridge's signature.
FWIW : (insider gold Vs insider ref. & colibri XGP Vs XGW) I used to own all of them. All the wooden bodies presenting a lower dynamic range, definition, detail & clarity.
Perhaps to look for the lack of transparency elsewhere in the chain but not to the Reed 3Q. (probably to your cartridge and/or perhaps your speakers).
Don't Give Up
George |
Guys .. thanks to everyOne!
I'm starting to like alot the sound of a 12" inches arm
The only doubt I'm having is regarding this Ziricote wood .. and its 22gr.arm mass .. paired with my Benz LP
Low frequencies sometimes a bit too powerful.
Sometimes with certain LP (like Amused to death ,D side) I got a very deep but telling the truth controlled ..low frequencies... so deep I never listened before
Maybe these are normal but I wasn't used to get with the Michell Tecnoarm and the same cart.
Or maybe 22gr. are too much high mass for the relatively medium compliance of the Benz LP (15 cu.)
In this case I would be better to consider the same Reed 12" but with the Red Cedar wood .. kinda 14gr. arm mass.
In your opinion .. Guys .. to come down from 22gr. arm mass to the 14 gr. arm mass of the Red Cedar .. could be a better choice for the BenzLP?
|
Hello Raul, maybe I'm using the wrong term, I'm not good with words anyway. What I mean is I feel more at ease with 12" tonearm.
To be more specific, with Judy Collins "Judith" which is my reference lp for female vocal. 1st tract side A, with 9" tonearm there are parts like she's almost to a point of shouting,and more upfront. With 12" tonearm her voice feel relaxed and I never get tired of playing it. One may point out I'm using different tonearms. But how many could afford one 9" Grandezza and another 12" in this real world.
Happy listening, |
Dear Mesael: +++++ " 12" arm does sound relaxed. " +++++
well IMHO if that is what you heard then your 12" tonearms were wrong with the cartridges you mated.
I try several 12" tonearms ( even against the same manufacturer 9-10" models. ) and I don't heard that relaxed sound.
Of course with a different audio system you have and with a different targets and priority quality performance home audio system music reproduction.
I'm not against " relaxed " sound but I'm for natural, true, accurate, non-colored and real sound as best we can mimic at home and taking always a live music as reference and not what " I like ".
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Curio: When we heard/hear live music normally the sound does not comes relaxed and laid back ( of course that depends at what distance we are hearing. ). If we hear a Steninway playing at normal levels at three meters we can't find out a relaxed and laid back performance, almost the same with any other music instruments including human voice.
The microphones in a recording normally are nearest to the " stage " that when we attend to hear live music so what we ( in a good recording that's not manipulated one. ) have to hear at our home audio system should be in this regard something near of what we hear in a live event and not that kind of relaxed and laidback performance. All the live music has a natural agresiveness that almost all audiophiles does not likes in their audio systems, why is this?, I can't understand.
Of course that if the recording was manipulated to performs relaxed then you will hear in this way.
A 12" tonearm has some advantages and some disadvantages but IMHO I think this subject could be not the main subject of what you are hearing with the Reed but more the relationship between your Benz Micro cartridge and the tonearm build materials that " resonate " with that tone balance ( yes, a 12" tonearm design resonate different form a 9" even with the same tonearm build materials but through my experiences not in so dramatic way. ) that IMHO does not reproduce the recording information in more " natural " way.
If the Graham or the Triplanar or the own 9.5" Reed or any other tonearm gives you a more true and real performance then maybe this is the road to take.
The other alternative is to find out a cartridge that could do the " trick " with that Reed tonearm.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Ps.: Of course that I'm assuming that VTA/SRA/Azymuth/VTF cartridge set up parameters are just on target. |
Hello Raul,
First .. thanks alot for your opinion.
Surely I wasn't prepared to listen a 12" inches arm .. but the difference from a "normal" (standard) 9 "inches is substantial
The way to sound is very different from the arms I know.
Probably the sound I'm getting now is more correct than the one I always got with a 9" but since I wasn't used I feel myself disoriented.
I 'll try some more days before to choose.
By the way it would be helpful to know if someone else have had the same experience.. just for a comparison. |
Hi Curio, The longer the tonearm the smaller the tracking error. But the longer the arm the higher the eff. mass.
If your wood choice for the Reed Q is Cedar then the compliance of your Benz LP should make a good combo with
your Reed Q. BTW it is not clear if you already own the
Reed. It looks as if you have one to experiment with and decide to buy or not later?
Regards, |
12" arm does sound relaxed. I have 6 9" arm before I get 12" Grandezza. It does sound better in all department, which is why I'm reluctant to get 10.5" for my next tonearm. |
Hello Guys,
The MintLP Best Tractor for the Reed 3Q has arrived and I already set my Benz LP with this magical glassy template.
Well , as I expected the sound is fantastic , the detail and inner detail improved so much compared to the supplied paper template the arm sounds as another arm.
The problem now is the way a 12" inches arm sounds .. so different from my 9" Michell Tecnoarm and other well known 9" as the Graham of my friend .. I'm now disoriented.
The 9" seem invadent and sound bumped into me .. forward .. while this 12" sound very refined and polite , sweet and totally not invadent .. it sounds relaxed and more laid back (backward).
You can increase the volume without any discomfort.
I noticed the mids are a bit recessed and the highs weighty .. concrete and never edgy.
So I'm a bit surprised about this way to sound .. this is the first 12" I try and I listen .. I wasn't prepared to it.
Without any question the way to sound of this (or every) 12" inch. arm is totally different compared to the sound I'm accustomed to listen.
This is why I'm here with the horryble doubt about to buy or not to buy this 12" inches Reed 3Q arm .. or to choose for a well known 9" inches like a Graham Phantom or a Triplanar .. I know how these arms sound.
What can I do? .. any suggestion? |
George, I agree with Curio and add my copmliments to his.
The strange thing however is that I started a similar thread some time ago about Pluto tonearms (see my threads).
Alas not a single reaction from the forum and only one from
Dertonarm in a privite e-mail.He mentioned the synergism with Van den Hul carts but also that this tonearm is not generaly known in particular in the USA. I am glad that
you proved Dertonarm to be wrong. Not a easy thing to achive versus this German. The TT's and tonearms hand made by Driessen have already a mythical status in the Netherlands but the Dutch have also some remarcable status in astronomy. There maybe some connections between the two
because the prices of Mr. Driessen are 'astronomical'.
One can put this the other way round: if you need to ask
for the price you are probable not suitable client for Mr.Driessen. You avoided this part of the story in your story like some kind of a English gentleman but the most of us are, I assume,not British and would love to hear
also about those 'earthly' subject without any harm done to astronomy.
Regards, |
My compliment for your post .. George ..
I'm raising my hat for it.
Curio |
Hi Nandric,
I don't care to sell anything.
My concern is about a set-up that can be a long time keeper.
I bought my first Pluto (7A special) twenty years back and my 9A Prestige Titanium since it's first day of commercial availability. I like it very much - especialy the synergy with the Colibri (an out of this world pair ).
I have 2 custom Riia (one is a differential octal 6sl7/6sn7/XXB & the other is a half active - half passive using Ecc803S/6J5 as a buffer with 1MOhm pot as a volume).
I also have a monoblock DHT OOA line preamp that I don't use for 2 years in favor for less gain stages, but it works miracles for digital sources.
You are right about the Pluto 9A (12000 euro) plus a last year's refreshing service (2500 euro) but in this hobby I realise & accept the fact of buying high prices & sell at 1/3rd. In my point of view, as this tonearm is titanium milled, hand build from it's inventor, it is not sponsored by magazines always keeping low profile (remember that the 9A is 15 years in the market so, it's price does not reflect the recent apetite for better tonearms), but sadly is the apparent amount of precise work to make it happen.
As of the real value of the Pluto 9A, well, you have to operate once with your hand to feel it's robust & surgical grade construction. Something way different of the skiny-light as feather, or cheap & easy to curve & mill Wood/Al (but anyway poor implemented & finished) competition. It's sound is engaging : explosive & highly detailed with excellent definition & perfect tonality. I would never put my self searching for a better match for my beloved XPP (the Colibri was a personal advice from Eddy) but it happens that my new found love for TD 124 mkII drives me for the 12" Reed 3Q as the armboard is the limiting factor & not the sound of the Pluto 9A. (The Symphonic Line RG6 has a very inventive cylindrical armboard that rotates around it's vertical axis & provides alignment for VTA also).
Sometimes I need to persuade my self not to be collective but rest upon the most simple & user friendly combo that has the most plain, least tempting appearence & the minimum of demands, just to remind myself that I'm not a wealthy yiappy but just a music lover (with 3 kids and a father with Altzheimer living in the same house) that once in my youth, had the bad idea to connect my favourite music with the good sound. In this present situation I prefer to get rid of my "drop-dead-gorgeous" Symphonic Line RG6 turntable, or my active Line monos, or even my second (octal-differential) Riia, but not the Pluto 9A/Colibri XXP . At least not before the rest mentioned components. I'm affraid I'm addicted to this pair ! (and I have a deep respect for Eddie Driessen). The sale price as always would be at 1/3rd the price of new. In the case of the RG6 ... at 1/4th (of 24000 euro). Because in my short life on Earth I choose to proceed straight ahead to my target & away from megalomania complex.
BTW once you mention Vdh, I recently change all of my cables for : MC Silver IT mkIII (prepre-Riia), Orchid (Riaa-PowerAmp), Inspiration (Speakers)
George |
Geoch, I am familiar with the Reed 2A in the actual sence
and with the Pluto in the virtual kind of sence. The Pluto is produced in the Netherlands by Edy Drissen our second 'grand master' next to Van den Hul. I think that the
complexity of Pluto is a small problem in comparition with
the price. Ie you will need much luck to sell the Pluto for
a 'reasonable' price.
Regards, |
Me too !
I keep my 9,5" Pluto 9A for now, but I like my Reed 3Q 12" also. The 9A is more exciting while the 3Q more calm.
Both have extreme precision but the Reed is easier to set while the Pluto is a nightmare.
I compare them in both my turntables with my spear cartridge (Vdh Condor) but I use the Pluto with the Colibri XPP & the Reed with the Goldfinger.
The turntables are the Symphonic Line RG6 & the Thorens TD 124 MkII. So far I cannot decide with confidence which combo I favour best ...
I think I will regret it ... but I feel more secure playing the Goldfinger/3Q/TD 124 MkII and I have thoughts about selling my other combo anytime soon.
George |
I have 4 arms in total (Schroeder, DaVinci, Rossner & Sohn, and Reed 2P).
The Reed is my favorite out of the four. It is easy to setup, highly precise, and has the ability to perform fine detail adjustments on all paramters, VTA, Azimuth, Antiskating, and everything else.
Priced at nearly 1/2 the price of a DaVinci, I couldn't be happier !
Rick |
Btw I'm now trying the Reed 3Q 12" Ziricote wood ..
I just mounted it yesterday night using the template inside the box .. it looks like a good paper template but I'm waiting for a MintLp .. second , arm cables (cryo silver) need a "break in" time to be judged.
Well , even everything needs run in time the result is already simply stunning!
I mounted a Denon DL-304 and not my BenzLP because the arm is new for me and I didn't want to risk my loved Benz .. and further I wait for the MintLP before to mount my Benz LP.
The setup is a breeze!! .. thanks to the red Laser that helps to set perfect flat VTA and Azimuth.
The sound is amazingly good much better than with my Michell Tecnoarm (with the Benz LP and MintLP setting) more wide .. more tall and deep .. voices are to take one's breath away focused and live .. listening fatigue equal Zero!
The inner detail si simply awesome!
Despite it isn't Minted :-)
I can't imagine when I 'll reset the arm geometry with the MintLP Best Tractor.. you know the difference!
It's the first 12" inches arm I try and I own so maybe I'm not prepared to its way to sound .. by the way I couldn't be happier and on my TW Acustic Raven One looks fantastic too.
My cent!
Curio |
Hello Vetterone,
Any news from RMAF about Reed 3Q? |
http://www.goldenageaudio.com.au/For%20sale/reed%20arm/reed%20tonearm.html |
Hi Curio, The Reed has a new site with the data about all
their tonearm versions: www.tonearms.lt
Regards, |
There will be one playing in room #1126 at RMAF if that helps.
I would like to tell you how it sounds but as I am the importer, I will let others tackle that. I will add it has been demoed against some very serious and expensive arms and has yet to lose. I have the trade-ins to prove it. |
