So what is the moral of the story? There is no best DAC. And when you you find the best DAC, make sure you enjoy it, because there will be a new best DAC in 6 months. Another lesson is how amazing the number of small companies that are producing state-of-the-art DACs at very high price. You need several hands just to count them. |
Rtn1, do you say that Wadia 9 is not the best DAC? I'll love to hear it once. Unfortunately dealer in Russia doesn't have it. I feel difference very much! And this difference is in resolution of the whole system! And with higher resolution and right tonal balance you got better DAC. It is not about taste! So, I believe that there is best DAC. With highest resolution and still right balance. After what I heard from GTE and Lavry Gold, I can say that the rest DACs has much lower resolution. With GTE I didn't get completely right balance, may be cables was not right for GTE. When resolution become higher it is also become much more critical to the rest of the system. Keeping balance with highest resolution is not easy. But result is amazing!!! I'll check if we have Orpheus available for audition! For now looks like I'm happy with Lavry Gold. |
Murataltuev, I don't know if the Wadia is the best. I do not have an adequate basis for comparison. I like what I hear, and I've stopped looking at DACs. All I'll say is that the Wadia is very detailed, and with the right supporting synergy, very natural. I was listening to Glenn Gould playing Bach on the piano this morning, and it was like he was in the room, humming along (literally, if you know Glenn Gould). I could picture the different positions of his hands and fingers while he played. I was not overcome by excessive detail. It just sounded real. I want a DAC that gives me everything. I'll figure-out how to deal with the information, but you cannot create something that does not exist at the start of the chain. As my system improves, the origin of this detail becomes more obvious. I've moved along to power conditioning (due to arrive next week), and then will make a definitive move on power cords/cables next year or so. Supporting components are huge for system satisfaction. |
Rtn1, I agree that cables and stands are critically important for the great result. I'm also experimenting much with them. As for the DAC, I have vinyl setup and never was really happy with digital. Even with dCS Scarlatti, vinyl was much more dynamic and 3D. I believe Wadia 9 is one of the best. May be better than all the rest. Looks like multibit architechture works better than deltasigma. Wadia 9, GTE and Lavry Gold uses multibit DACs. |
Kennyt, you never heard good vinyl rig? I never before heard any digital sounded close to vinyl. Only because I have vinyl I know that must be better DAC. I bought many of best DACs and selling them not easy. Do you think I'm spending money for nothing? I know what I'm looking for. And I always knew it when I change every component in my system. |
Murataltuev, The Wadia does not have dynamics of vinyl. The dynamics come down the chain, with the BAT pre and the Troy. Someone in another thread likened the Wadia to a scientific instrument. It was a put-down, but it depends upon your perspective. The Wadia adds nothing. It just extracts the data. It is up to you, what you do with that data. Personally, I do not always care for the dynamics of vinyl. It can be too much, resulting in a loss of realness. I can get increased dynamics from my pre with different tubes. It gives a different perspective. The layering comes from the Troy. Not even the pre can give the optimal layering. The ultimate DAC may be your castle in the air. Cables and power are important, but the pre may be key for the sound you seek. I'd be curious to know what you think of top preamps from BAT, Joule, VAC... Even more choices if you are willing to go with unbalanced, which I am not. The Troy may be another piece to get you there. |
Kennyt, may be we have different understanding of dynamic. I agree with Rtn1, that may be vinyl sometimes is too dynamic. I have this effect, but hope to fix it by changing tonearm cable. Rtn1, I heard so much about Troy and someday definately will have it in my system! And I totally agree about importance of the rest of the system. But DAC is the source, and you can't get better that the source. Preamp is very important and my next upgrade will be preamp. I have may the best preamp and phono in the world Tidal Preos, but there is better Tidal Presencio. When I search for preamp I compared it with many very good and expensive ones, but Tidal was so much ahead! Jwm, Berkeley is great DAC for price, and there are better ones, but for higher price:) |
Hi murataltuev, I am very interested in you finding your vinyl set up to be more dynamic than your digital rig. I too have scarlatti and other DCS digital. It has been a longtime since I have had my own TT (I got lazy), although some of my audiophile close friends have super TT rigs. I could not say they are more dynamic, although the sense of flow etc is hard to beat but not impossible. In fact a friend of mine recorded a CDR direct from his TT. When I played this back on my digital, it killed many of my original disks! I wonder what you are using with your DCS for it to have dynamic issues? Or maybe I need to understand better your meaning of dynamics? DCS does have the ability to be restrained or slightly removed, but with the right tweaking and set up it is sublime. Maybe try some VD cables to bring it to life? Or is it a preamp issue? The drawback of these discussions is you can say so much and so little at the same time! I dont know the GTE, but I have had many of the usual suspects in the digital world. |
dCS is great DAC, but I always feel that vinyl is more real. And I think it is because better resolution and dynamic. I know that technically dynamic means the speed of changing volume. So, with higher speed, you have more real picture. And higher resolution also makes picture more real. How to differentiate that vinyl sounds better because of resolution or dynamic I can't say. But if vinyl has less dynamic it can't be more real. I have some classical tracks with big symphonic orchestra and good test is sound of violins. In one case they sound like away. In another case they hook your soul and you dive deep into music. I think it is because dCS highs are softer (less dynamic) than vinyl's. Chadeffect, can you explain how to differentiate where is dynamic and where is resolution? |
Hi murataluev, I am only confused because the noise floor is so much higher with your TT when compared even to modest digital sources. Of course I know the pain in making it musical. My understanding of dynamics is volume contrast and tracking this through time or the envelope, both in the individual instrument within the band or orchestra, as well as the orchestras or band as a wholes volume. I guess resolution is very close in the equation. Helped by ultra low noise floors and the usual low distortion and linear signal path and vibration control which enables the freedom of the above. Not sure if frequency response or character is included in this? The funny thing is that recently I have been let loose with some cabling which has made me rethink these issues with digital playback, even with the very nice cabling I own (Analysis plus golden oval and VD). I have been humbled by the degree of loss within some of these fine cables when compared to some experimental stuff I have on loan. I wont go into it here and hijack this thread, but be warned. You may not be listening to your DAC at all. As the inventor of this cable system told me before I plugged it in, "you are hearing about 60% of your system at the moment". I thought it was unlikely as I have gone to a reasonable extreme with vibration control/clean electricity and good cabling. All I can say is I plugged the damned stuff in. It is frightening... Much much more information. Timing naturalness and so on. Just real. It was very good before, but oh dear. BTW the cables cost more than my whole system, DCS included! But then it would do wouldnt it? |
Chadeffect, I agree with you 100%! Vibration control/clean electricity and good cabling is the key! I also was very unhappy when first listen to dCS with stock power cords, without any vibration control which is very critical especially for transport. Key elements of good result was PurePower2000 on top of separate Copulare stand connected with Argento SMR Extream Edition power chord to wall and with Nordost Odin cables to dCS and with special feets on top of AudioMagic stand. Here is photo of this feets: http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=24510&st=950&p=253462&#entry253462 Without this feets, I can't listen to dCS Transport at all, preferring my computer as a source! So, I really did much to get all potential from dCS. And cost of this tweaks also higher than dCS DAC for example. But if in the same conditions I have much better result with another DAC, it means that that DAC is just better! |
05-23-10: Murataltuev writes: Here is photo of this feets Do you mean these feet? http://i39.tinypic.com/153uys8.jpg Regards, |
Hi murataltuev, I approached these things too although with different products to you. I use the PS audio PPP regenerator which is powered from its own circuit and wired with VD power cables (I hear the Purepower is very good). I have a few different isolation devices. but all the equipment is suspended by SSC pucks and sit on various platforms. I found these helped the DCS DAC. Maybe not night and day but worth having. I have my system in a tight space these days which makes some platforms unusable for me. In the end I got rid of my DCS Transport. I found the computer (Mac with Amarra) to give better sound and flexibility. Although sometimes I miss the odd SACD. (I never had the Scarlatti transport BTW). CD is dead. Personally I found the fuses in the DCS to be unlistenable. More so than the isolation. I changed these to gold fuses which really made the presentation sweeter and organic sounding. Especially in the highs. The firewire cable is another one too. I would be very surprised if you had the same noise floor in your DCS as your TT. I dont know which speakers you use, but quite low sensitivity? 86-90db/watt? Try the same equipment of high sensitivity and you will have a shock! Just the difference in noise between the Elgar plus DAC output to the Scarlatti DAC output was unmistakable. I am not sure that by just changing one DAC for another leaving the chain as was means that the other DAC is better or worse. Maybe it just means it compliments that way of being isolated better? Who knows? This is where things get very difficult, with taste and music choices also impacting on opinions. I would like to hear the GTE. My complaint is how much value it is, regardless of how good it is. To me none of the internal parts can add up to that kind of money. Even if the boards and casing were solid gold... The Scarlatti is bad enough! Remember they will all be door stops in 5 years unlike your TT probably! Digital is moving very quickly. |
Hi murataltuev, I mainly use Hifi tuning fuses. Although I do have some furutech. I am amazed you find the highs in the DCS are soft. Of all the digital I have heard DCS has always had great impact in the highs Not hard or bright but vivid. Did you say which speakers you use? Do you use any of the filters in the DCS DAC? I look forward to hearing the GTE some time. Although I have enough on my plate sorting out new amps.. But that is another story! |
I too use Filter 2 on my dCS Scarlatti. I have the DAD [Digital Audio Denmark] with me. The new 'player' to have joined the club is 'Ayon Skylla' The GTE - I have heard with Lansche - German. Was too 'analytical' for my taste. However, the GTE with the KK is 'supposed' to be from a different league; I look forward to hearing the KK with the GTE next month in HK on the 6th @ Audio Show. The KK in Mumbai [India] plays really well. I like it more than my Tidal speaker....[sorry no offence intended to any person] ! I want to learn more about this Larvy Gold DAC. Any inputs may be appreciated. Currently also looking @ a DAC from Poland... What I need help with is - Digital Out from a computer on I2S. How do I manage that ? My Ayon works best with an I2S Input.. Any suggestions ? Please. Thanks. bhagwan p.s. Do keep me informed of the dCS / APL / GTE 'shoot out' in August ! Should be interesting.. |
I heard latest top MSB. I think they have some problems with HF. Low dynamic and resolution in highs. I now think that APL will win this battle, because digital cable is a dramatic problem! I only worry about tubes inside:) Swinnindia, If any chance to get Lavry Gold, you'll be impressed! Pure analogue sound! What is it KK? You sure it is better than Tidal? |
Hello Murat ! KK = Kaiser Kaweru. The 1st pair in India has been installed by me in Mumbai. It is a lovely speaker. We would love to get the GTE for it, but the finances just do not add up - very sad. The speaker is 'supposed' to play its best with the GTE. Currently they play through Cadence Canasya - 845 tube mono amps. The DAC is Bow Technologies - Denmark. The pre is Allnic from Korea. The Lavry I will 'work' on. I have a DAD [Digital Audio Denmark] for sale. Once that goes, I will call for a Gold DAC. 'bhagwan' |
Hello Murat, I now think that APL will win this battle, because digital cable is a dramatic problem! I think you are correct! :-) I only worry about tubes inside:) The pair of the vintage E182CC tubes is outside the player, not inside. :-) The tube stage is a classic transformer-coupled design. The NWO linearity is within 0.1dB in the hearing range, so no "tubey sound" here. :-) I'm preparing great comparision of best speakers in the world. Perhaps you are overlooking the Gravitas NB-1? Best, Alex Peychev www.aplhifi.com |
Murataltuev, I just posted a comprehensive review of the APL Hi-Fi NWO-4.0SE CD player on Audiogon and on aplhifi.com http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1280828264&openmine&zzPuremusic&4&5#Puremusic Best Regards, John |
Murat, Thank you for your kind comments. I hope you will get to hear the APL player soon....Just make sure that it is burned-in. It takes about 500 hours for the NWO-4.0SE before it begins to resolve the most refined level of harmonic texture and dynamic gradations. At that point the level of musical realism becomes awe-inspiring. Enjoy! |
BTW, some contenders for the best digital combintions have not been mentioned in this thread and should be considered if one is looking for the very best: Orpheus Labs Privelige Transport/DAC MBL 1622A/1611F Soulution Audio 745 Burmester 069 Zanden 2000P/5000S Emm Labs XDS1 darTZeel is also apparently bringing a digital player to the market in the not too distant future. |
IMO, also the Concert Fidelity DAC-040 Vacuum Tube Converter is better then dCS Scarlatti (four elements). Tsuda-san of Concert Fidelity has some very fine products that sound extremely real and pleasing, so I will not be surprised if someone prefers his products. As for the shootout, it never happened. However, there are two reviews in the the Norwegian audiophile magazine Fidelity. One for the DAC-S and the other for the NWO-M. Interestingly enough, after auditioning the NWO-M, the Fidelity editor has a NWO-MS (Master System) on order and will take delivery very soon. Just FYI. Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
