Tvad, speaking of speakers, have you ever decided on what you were going to purchase? Way back you had a pretty lengthy thread with oodles of advice offered to you about good low wattage speakers. Other audiophools have asked you the same as to what you decided on: no repsonse from you. What gives? Just curious as to what you wound up with, or not. peace, warren :)
Tvad, if I suggested that ALL negative feedback stems only from absent or imperfect listening then I apologize. No doubt there are those who find them wanting despite having heard them set up optimally, with synergistic gear, and have had opportunity to spend time listening to them, hopefully in their own homes (me, I don't lay much stock in hearing anything anywhere else. I believe that while good impressions may result from good equipment, the risk of bad impressions resulting from good equipment is somewhat higher in a foreign environment IMO. This, again IMO, is why Audiogon thrives - the high turnover of equipment is a manifestation of what is essentially home auditioning).
I would also hazard a guess that the negatives MAY be a side effect of heightened expectations. As I implied, the Druids *are* flawed... I don't think anyone can claim they are perfect, or even nearly so. But it is their set of charms, which to me became evident only upon extended auditioning (I strongly considered returning them at around the 45-day point - fortunately the audition period was 60 days. Please don't regard this as condescending. It is my experience, ok?) that won me over despite their weaknesses. I would be among the first to allow that the cheerleading at times got a bit over-the-top, leading to preconceived notions, negative or not, among some readers. That is one reason why, despite over a year of pleasure with the Druids, I am speaking up only now.
I mentioned my audiobuddy in my post above. I did not mention that I had another audiophile (not a friend but an Audiogon deal) who heard the Druids when I had just acquired them. It was obvious he was not impressed, and thinking back, I am not surprised. They were then a far ways away from where they would end up, perhaps a couple of months later.
It's cool with me that you don't think they are wonderful speakers (not putting words in your mouth here, I hope). To invoke a totally tired truism: vanilla, chocolate, and all that. I like to post when I have something to ask or share. Argument is not something I will spend my time on - I regard this post as more of clarification, as I don't like incomplete communication, especially when I am the culprit. Cheers.
Having recently moved to Definition 1.5 from the Druid, I thought I'd post my findings.
First, because of all the discussion re placing these further back than Druids, I placed them at about 12 feet from listening position, about 9.5 feet apart. By contrast, the Druids were 10 ft away, 8.75 ft apart (and they were at home there).
In this initial position, I found them (Defs) detailed with excellent soundstaging. But they sounded a bit thin, and bass was difficult to get right. Cranking up the pots in back resulted in bloat, turning them down resulted in rolloff.
After a couple of days, I was less than completely thrilled. If I were forced to accept them with that sound, I would do so, but would not consider the price diff from the Druids to be worth it. The Druids, as positioned above, were warm, inviting, and intimate, as others have posted. If I may use clichéd words, 'seductive' would be about right.
Keeping in mind the widespread advice (no pun intended) to keep them farther away, I wondered what I could do. Farther yet? Tried it, nope. By now they were 12" from the wall in a 17W x 21L room, on the 17' wall.
Due to lack of options, I started moving them forward. (You know where this is going by now, don't you?)
At the identical point the Druids used, they were sounding MUCH better. But the cigar was a Swisher, not a Cuban. Forward, transducing soldiers!
I finally got them dialed in at about 9.25 ft away, and 8.25 ft apart! Toe-in is noticeable, but less so than with the Druids, maybe 20 degrees. Moving them forward, back, narrower, wider, from this breaks up the magic for me. Note those last two words - for me.
The above, to me anyway, just goes to show that following others' advice can be a good starting point, but you have to have to have to find out for yourself in the end. As I believe this was one of the main thrusts of OP's question, I thought I'd emphasize it. I have absolutely no doubt that those who advocate further placement are correct - for their rooms and their gear, and most significantly, their ears. It just didn't work that way for me.
Oh BTW - the Definitions are FANTASTIC. I had an audiobuddy over this past weekend and he took maybe 30 minutes to get into the sound, after which he was entranced. I pressed him to pick the sound apart - offer me some negatives. He couldn't do so. (And we are good enough friends that he would be honest. For example, he did not care for a different pair he heard at my home a couple of years ago, and those were similarly priced to the Defs.) Ok, I don't necessarily believe that that alone makes them perfect, but I feel much the same way - anything that I could pick on would have to be nits and I couldn't be sure about them anyway.
All the positive buzz about Druids is also true. For their price point, they are a stunning speaker. Notwithstanding the negatives from people who have never heard them or heard them improperly set up, they will deliver so much that one feels like a heel for faulting the things they do not deliver or deliver in paucity - which are, exteme imaging, extended treble, and nth resolution. (Leaving bass mostly out of this, but they WILL deliver bass to at least 40 hz). But if they did all the above, there would be no Definition, and believe it that spending the extra gets you all those things. The Defs are far more neutral (does this make the Druid colored? I suppose it does) while retaining the baseline qualities that makes the Druid so alluring. Is it worth it? That is, as always, in the ear of the 'behearer', to coin a clumsy word.
Now I only need to decide one thing - whether I should sell the Druids or create a second listening room for them. Not ready to make that decision yet.
Just measured.......101 inches from tweeter to tweeter. I was 10 feet back initially but I moved the sofa aft a bit and find I like that better. I haven't found a need to honor the equilateral triangle theory. Toe-in adjustment was all I needed.
My Defs are a foot from the front wall and I am 12 feet from them. The wall behind me is 8 feet back. This setup works well in my space and would be worth a try in yours.
Well, the main question was how far to keep the speakers away from the front wall. My response was merely that the more important distance was between the speakers and listener.
If one had 15 feet to spare from speakers to listener but was constrained to an 8-foot separation, I would advise to try that, then move the listening seat closer to get a wider spread. At some point, an optimized location will be found. Getting somewhat closer to the speakers will also increase distance from the rear wall which can only be a good thing.
i'm not sure about the def's but the druids really aren't affected by spikes. they are really light and even the speaker enclusure is very thin and hollow when you tap on it. which is very different from most speaker cabinet design. i think heavy multi speaker cabinets that are more affected by teh speaker movements do better with spikes. and the druids aren't your average speakers in the least. i did put them on a set of auralex gramma's and the sound became more muddy. they sound much better on my hardwood floors.
i think the best thing to do is just experiment with different methods of coupling/isolation/placement. the biggest factor in getting the proper sound out of your speakers really is room interaction and how they are placed and what they are placed on. just experiment. that's half the fun in my opinion! it's almost impossible to blindly tell someone how to setup their speakers when they have no idea what type of room you have.
it's amazing what you will learn about sound by just experiementing. i've even found little things like closing a door next to a speaker to make a difference in both perceived sound and measured frequency response.
i will say the druids are quite amazing speakers - the speed and detail in te mid range is just simply amazing. it definitely is not for everyone but it has grown on me quite a bit since i've added them to my collection. i think with the proper sub and setup they are definitely keepers.
Call Sean at Zu about the Pros, I think they are a slight upcharge for the beefier drivers.
I've had Druids and both models of Definitions within 6" of the front wall and had them sound good. My Pros now are only about a foot from the front wall and I'm very happy with them there.
I have no doubt they would sound even better further out into the room but my room doesn't allow it. The more important consideration with the Definitions is 213cobra's advice about keeping at Least 10 feet from the listener as the drivers take that distance to properly gel. If you have 12 - 15 feet, it's buttah.
I believe Zu simply markets the standards to the audiophile community do to set up issues, lots of problems in helping on intergration due to choices of about 50 processors out there to handle the crossover etc.. I mean that can't deal with all products and combos that the pros could use End user is not just plug and play anymore and it is more complex Not to mention more cables, more power supplies to plug in, and simply more cost and confusion to the customer.
I found butterworth 6 db set at 47.5 hz excellent in one room... and in my other room linkwitz 12 db set at 50 or 53 hz very good.. So in this case you have much more room tuning flexability with the pros no doubt.
With the 1.5's, natural response of the rear drivers is flat-ish in response and does not need EQ. I don't think flat-to-20 hz is an expectation with the 1.5's but most folks aren't too concerned with that. They are crossed steeply above 40 hz and only an attenuator is available to adjust their output. A person could probably dig into the speakers and change that XO point/slope but I'm not adept enough to try it.
The Pro subwoofers are professional drivers, capable of significantly more output than the 1.5 drivers. However, their response curve is ragged and must be EQed. Without EQ, they run to 1 khz and fall off sharply from there.
With my TacT I can adjust the main XO point/slope as well as that for the subs. While a certain amount of shared output (bipole) is useful, i.e. shallow XO slopes, doing too much like running the mains down to 40 hz will muddy the sound. Further, getting the little main amp out of the bass zone makes it perform even better higher up.
Ron, As I understand it, the full range drivers roll off naturally in the range of 40 hz.in both models. With the 1.5, there is a choke which prevents the rear firing woofers from reproducing anything above 40 hz. With the Pros. you have the option of setting the upper reach of the rear woofers at any frequency that works for you in your room. Mike posted at one point that he crosses his over at 65 hz. so as to unburden his low output triodes and put more responsibility on the woofer amp. I can definitely imagine the benefits in such a decision. In my case, I have experimented but always return my upper shelf to the 50 hz. range. This has got to be the world's best reggae speaker.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was confused by thinking the 4 woofers were limited above 40hz but it appears that it is only the internal amp that has the limitations. Is this correct?
I think that you would prefer the Def Pros if you are a "hands-on" audiophile. If you are more inclined to set and forget your system, them the Def 1.5 might be a better choice.
The Pros offer more versatility but require more equipment, and thus, more investment. With the Def 1.5, a small integrated amp is all you need to attain world class performance.
The Pros have much more output potential and can be infinitely tuned in the bass. The 1.5's have a useful bass attenuator but I was never able to get them to pressurize my leaky room.
Well...I guess I will jump in again. There is only two reasons that I would need the Def Pro from a sonic viewpoint.
1. If you have a room with a problem node, however these are usually in the 80hz to 250hz range. There is really not much you can do about a suckout but if you have a bump or higher that normal roll off in the room 40 hz and below the Pro's are the way to go.
2. If you want to improve on the amplification driving the woofers.
The trick is, if you can do it, empty the room. Test it and set it up, bring in one piece of furniture at a time and make sure the furniture is not the problem. Again you might be surprised by tightly stretched upholstery/leather.
Thanks very much to several of the insightful posts, Ron and Phil in particular. I know there is no substitute for auditioning in one's own room, but some of the details have really helped me believe that the Definitions would work great in my room and I should give them a test run.
I'm curious about the Def Pros - they have been mentioned to me, both in this thread and in a couple very helpful emails I have received on the topic, and I have read the stuff on 6moons about them. I'm left with fairly different viewpoints on their necessity vs. the standard Definition - some seem to think that, while the Definition is great in its own right, the Def Pros are inevitable, while others (including, apparently, Zu themselves) think the standard Definitions should suffice in all but the most particular situation. I appreciate the inputs I've had, and am not asking for those to be repeated, but if anybody has further experience with the two, I'd love to hear about them. The Zu website doesn't really address the Pros.
Thanks...you have probably already tried this but you may find hanging an ornamental rug or acoustic foam on the wall between and behind your speakers will help to add more depth to the sound stage. I was actually attempting to resolve some refections coming out of my fireplace (which is between/behind the speakers) by placing some thick foam in the opening, not only did I deaden the refections, I also I improved the depth. Now when I listen to John Rutter's Requiem the soprano sounds 40 feet away not 12...
Another interesting thing I forgot to mention is that in some cases I have unexpectedly found the best sound (flattest low freq. from 300 down) is in the very back of the room, it could be anywhere from 4 to 12 inches from the back wall. I was helping a friend set up a pair of Druids this weekend, we were using the long wall in a...let's say 16'X 13' room. When we initially set up the room, the listening position was approximately 2.5 feet from the back wall. I had the speakers about 101 inches apart center to center and 116 inches for tweeter to listening position and the the Druids were maybe 1.5 ft from the back wall. I was having problems with the frequency response being all over the place with readings showing +/- 9 db and shallow sound stage. I started moving the rta mic forward and backward to find the best spot (lack of room spikes and peaks) and sure enough we were able to move the chair back about 1.5 feet and bring the Druids out the same, bingo we had it...flat from 28Hz to 12,000Hz +/- 3 db and an improved sound stage. However to do this we had to have a friend bring over some acoustic treatment to put on the back wall.
Rule of thumb: Never forget the room is part of the speaker system too!
Again...just wanting to be helpful! This is only an opinion.
I do have some room treatment, and quite literally this is very room dependent as well, but I get just an intimate sound with the right spacing and sitting from 8 ft, or 14 feet... But again I guess it depends on the way your room will carry frequency response. My room is FAR too small for Definitions no doubt, its only 12.5 feet wide so the further you get away the more powerfull everything sounds. I would consider a 15 ft X about 28 ft room more optimal, I use to have them in a 14 ft X 29 ft room and could easily sit 14 feet away with full spectrum results.
I suppose it's my preference, but playing around with distnace from speakers, usually leaves me (the further away I am)feeling less involved with the music. I rather feel like I'm in the music rather than the music being before me. My Definitios, too, are 8 feet apart, but 10 feet I find to be optimum. In fact, I'd move up a foot rather than back another foot if I had to make a choice. It's what works in my crib. Isn't that always they deal, anyway? Sweet looking rig, Undertow. Enjoy...peace, warren :)
My tweeter center is about 8 ft apart. so average would be 10.5 to 12 feet back, but I could do 13 and it sounds really good too with bigger sounding music . Just can't permanently set up this way cause there is a Landing that goes up about 8" behind my chairs that are butted up against it right now leading into a hallway.
Rwwms Nice post... as stated it will be very room dependent, for example I can only get a maximum of 11 feet from the speakers which is where I have seating now, so I unfortunatley can't try out the 4 or 5 ft from the backwall without being 8 feet total away from the speakers...And this does not work unless your a big nearfield listener I guess.. I find with the definitions I have and could sit at least 12 or 13 feet away with no problem and even bigger surrounding soundstage with at least 2 ft between speaker and backwall.
But I agree with what you say. Honestly the bigger overall average room you can put these in the better options you will have, and I have done the Long wall setup as well with better than the shortwall results myself too.
I usually only read through threads of interest and never respond., however in reading your thread I became frustrated with how things seemed to get off track. There is some great info here, I only wanted to offer input based on my experiences. I have had the opportunity to set up more than a handful of Zu speakers in some great and some worst case scenarios. It is my goal to answer your questions with a little more specifics and have full expectations of getting blasted:
Can anybody comment on what setup works best with the Druids and/or the Definitions? I have read >10ft to the listener for the Definitions.
Although 10 is usually close, I generally start out by calculating the overall listening space. The rule of thumb that works best for me regarding the ZU speakers is: The distance from speaker to speaker is equal to 85 to 86% of the distance from the listener to the speakers. Most speakers are best suited for 80 to 84%, so it may look a little odd at first but the sound stage will be incredible!
Does the floor material matter? I have read that they need to be placed on hard surfaces, not carpet - true?
I have had the opportunity to setup with both scenarios and in short (as someone else stated) it doesnt matter, but please have an area rug covering the middle of a hardwood floor to cut reflecting sound waves. Most of the discussions on floor material are probably regarding the Druids due to the vent at the bottom of the speaker. Most folks would naturally think this works as a bass port but is actually used to control the impedance of the driver. The only thing critical is the height of the Druid off the floor not the floor type. If the height is not correct the driver will not be correctly dampened. I think Adam of ZU suggests that you be able to push a regular CD between the Druid and the carpet. This appears to be a little black magic but I have found that I can see the driver traveling at greater distances and somewhat erratically if the height is not set properly.
They appear to work in a fairly standard triangle pattern - separated by X feet, user seated Y feet away.
Answered above I hope.
Toe in?
The Definitions, like other high efficiency dynamic loud speakers, can get aggressive depending on the equipment; I suggest starting between 18 to 22 degrees .just make sure they are the exactly the same. The Druids are a bit different in that they are voiced to be less aggressive and more forgiving than the Definitions. I typically start by setting the Druids to face directly toward the listener (sitting in the listening position you should not be able to see the sides) and adjust out to taste from there.
Do these speakers do the "head in a clamp thing" or does it support multiple listeners reasonably well?
The Zu speakers have a 30 to 40 degree dispersion (best guesstimation) which is a great benefit in setting up in difficult rooms. The controlled dispersion minimizes problems with sidewall reflections and still gives you a listening window large enough for two or a crowed three on a couch. I will still take the middle, thank you!
The ZUs have the ability to utilize the long wall of the room. Some of the best results I have had have been on the long wall and it doesnt need to be in the middle either. Dont be shy in trying both, you may be very surprised.
Distance from back / side walls?
The distance from the rear wall is more critical for the Druids that the Definitions. Without over simplifying things, the Definitions have powered sub-woofers and in most cases the bass can simply be dialed in to fit the room. As with all speakers there is a trade off between bass response (close to rear wall) and soundstage depth (away from rear wall). For best results pull them out as far as your spouse will allow and tweak from there. In real world scenarios, usually start out around 4 to 5 feet from rear wall and adjust to taste. Side wall distance is not an issue. It really doesnt matter if you have a side wall close or not. Again, this is due to the dispersion characteristics of the ZU speakers.
The Druids, like most other speakers, are more critical to rear wall placement. Being they are designed to start rolling off around 31 Hz, you will need to get closer to the rear wall to get a chance for the room to actually develop those frequencies. In most cases 18 to 3 work well, keeping in mind the closer to the rear wall the more shallow the soundstage. It is a trade off and only you can make that decision. I have set up numerous Druids and have never gotten less than 31 Hz out of them. However if you are using SET tube amps that have the ability to convey depth it would be a shame to waste it. You can always add a subwoofer at a later date and get the best of both worlds.
As for as spikes (however I do not recall your asking), it really depends on where you are with your system. If you already have your source/pre-amp/amp/interconnects and speaker cables nailed, what are you waiting for?
One last note, I like most other folk I dont respond to these sort of threads due to the politics and verbal quibbling. Sorry if I stepped on any toes...
I've got 9 of the 1" Apoints (without threaded bolt) and discs, but I'm using them elsewhere in the system. I tried a different approach and it seems to work for me, that's all I'm sayin'. Perhaps I'll get around to trying the Apoints under the Druids, but until then, I'm enjoying the music.
Audiofeil, how do you know (audiopoints) are a waste of money? Have you tried them Why o why are Zu owners (any owners)so anti anything that may raise the Zu bar even higher. I hear, particularly in the midrange and bass, significant improvements with Audiopoints. That's the truth for these ears. After market spikes would probably be beneficial on many speakers. Even some of the big guns.
Floor material is unimportant. On Druids, you just have to set the floor-to-baseplate gap correctly. On Definitions, no issue here at all. Definitions also have a vertical dispersion pattern that minimizes floor and ceiling effects.
You will likely want some toe-in for best imaging, but not always. Experiment. Both my Druids and Definitions systems have speakers toed-in. Druids will give you a sweet spot about the width of 3 listeners at 7 - 8 ft, more from further away. Fall-off is gradual. No practical problems there. Definitions project a soundstage sufficiently dispersed to provide a wide arc of home theater viewers a fully enjoyable sonic experience with dialog anchored to the lips of actors on screen, so on music you'll find the sweet spot ample.
Both speakers can be used in close proximity to back and side walls with no trouble. Depending on your room, the depth dimension of the soundstage may slide forward some, as you get closer to the wall, but this is highly variable person-to-person and room to room. Both of these speaker designs give you considerably more room placement flexibility than the majority of speakers.
It's just that not long ago, some of those here dominated almost every thread about one kind of speaker. Now they're enamored about another one as the does-all, end-all, last word in excellence.
No doubt they'll be another epiphany soon, and we'll be forced to endure more endless threads about how there's nothing better, etc.
Zu and Tyler. Enough already. Even DK Design finally went away. Time for a life, you know?
Another trick that has worked fairly well for me in terms of tuning the downward bass port is placing a 11"x11"x3/4" piece of maple under each Druid. I tried fiddling with the spikes provided by Zu, but I can't seem to get them screwed in far enough to get the speakers base down to the 2 CD case height (about 3/4"). Also, I don't really feel like spending another $200 on Audiopoints or other spikes plus floor protection discs at this point. Anyhoo, the maple boards seem to do a good job of filling out the lower end, thereby, creating a more even presentation from top to bottom. I bought a couple of 5-1/2" wide 3/4" think maple boards, cut'em to size, glued two pieces side-by-side and voila! About $30 in materials.
I love my speakers so much as do the other faithful owners. These discussions would be so much more helpful if we could just try to leave personal baggage at the door and avoid pissing matches. If I were an outsider looking in at one of these threads I'd be really turned off.
Hey, I'm not an outsider and I'm still turned off.
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