… "And the government shall be upon his shoulders"

@frogman Interesting piece which seems to give undue weight to Old Testament prophecies, Isaiah,  over Christ's actual teachings, "My kingdom is not of this world". Also the sermon referred to seems prone to a fair dose of wishful thinking. Fascinating that Dec 25 in India is "Good Governance Day" in India. I don't believe we have such a day in the U.S..

But you could be right that this was the line of thought going on in Handle's mind.

@mahgister That is a great memory to have of your father!

I like vocals well enough if I like the music they are embedded in. World and folk, great usually, classic jazz great,  Choral, often, gregorian has always been mesmerizing.  It is the style of Opera singing that I can't warm to. It seems too artificial. Ironically that may be what others see as the ART of it.  I don't cotton to musicals much either, not suprisingly since they are really just modern opera for the most part. Pardon the broad generalizations above.

Welcome back @mahgister , I haven’t seen you around these parts for quite a spell partner. I Hope you have been well.

As far as Handel's genius goes, I much prefer his Water Music and Royal Fireworks music. Given that I have never been able to make myself into an Opera fan, I have sat though two versions of the complete Oratorio in my life and I sincerely doubt there will be a third. For me it's all about the Hallelujah Chorus then it's done. :-)

Great insights @elliottbnewcombjr . I especially like this quote from praeclara.org:

"Why then did Handel compose Messiah? Or more precisely, why did he dare? The immediate answer is that by 1741 Handel’s life and career were in trouble. Not only was he deeply in debt and partially paralyzed by stroke, but his latest Old Testament oratorios, including Israel in Egypt, had been poorly received. When the Duke of Devonshire invited him to compose a work for a concert in Dublin to raise money for a variety of charities (including the Charitable Musical Society for the Relief of Imprisoned Debtors), Handel most likely decided upon Messiah in the belief that an oratorio based on “new material”� — the New Testament — might succeed where his previous oratorios had failed and that perhaps the concert’s Christian charitable purpose would shield him from charges of committing sacrilege.

Even then, Handel took extra precautions. Although Messiah is about the life and passion of Jesus, more than half its texts derive from the Old Testament."

and, "Handel’s own attitudes toward Messiah remain a mystery, and we will probably never know if he intended this work as a clever career move or as a tribute to God, or, as is quite possible, both."

@waytoomuchstuff That is one of the nicest compliments to this group and I agree with you that this has been a good discussion and sharing. Special thanks also to @sargonicuse ! That opinion piece from the Times is great! I was slow to getting to read it but it gives real insight.

I think there is a lesson to be learned, and I will just speak for myself here, but this also speaks to our most recent contributors to the thread. There was a tension about the intermingling of Church and State, probably more in Handel's time than in ours. (King George had just created his own state religion.) Handel at the time of the writing of the Messiah was in need of money and  politically had been aligned firmly with the Anglican Church and the king of England who was his major patron. He seized on the text offered by one of his patrons and created a religious oratorio that turned out to be both artistic and monetary success. We know that religion was not likely the foremost thought in Handel's mind during this process. However, there were persuasive references from the Old Testament portions of the libretto that emphasized the linkage of earthly and heavenly power, and he chose to showcase those to the great approval of his king. George the third, who stood upon first hearing it as it was said he recognized it as "the national anthem of Heaven".

Those of us schooled in the Christian tradition may find his elevation of the Old Testament over the words of Christ himself a bit perplexing, especially with regard to the importance of earthly power. Christ in several instances, made clear that "his kingdom was not of this world" despite the many Old Testament references and explicit declarations that he would rule physically in this world. The fact that the millennium has come and gone at which time it was appointed that Christ would return and take up the rule of his earthly kingdom has not deterred many who still believe this is what is in the cards, ignoring Christ's efforts to make clear that this was not really what he was about.

The lesson: beware of Christians unduly emphasizing Old Testament over the New because their motivations might not be entirely "Christian".

So that's what I learned today had Audiogon and I thank you all. As Forrest Gump would say "that's all I have to say about that".