Lew,
I agree with you on the 'must' of an outboard power supply.
I am not sure what the design philosophy is in terms of all in one box, put I feel that an isolated power transformer with it's field currents from the main box is not a bad way to go.
As far as my Whest Three goes, I am very pleased with the outboard 5 pound toroid multi-tap transformer in its own cabinet which connects via two dedicated 5 pin XLR cables, one to each channel.
The most important revelation determined here is the fact that isolating the two cabinets from vibration and acoustic feedback made such an amazing improvement in overall performance.... not that the Whest Three was lacking, it was surely not. But the isolation just brought things up to another level. I am sure that doing a similar mounting with one of the upper level Whest units would improve that particular performance is as well.
I cannot comment on how much better the 40RDT SE., Titan, or Reference models would play vs. the Three SE which I have; I have not heard the others. But honestly, the Three SE is the best phono stage I have heard. At least in my smaller world of experience as I have only had the Clear Audio Smart V2, the Gold Note PH 10, the Nova III and now this new to me Whest Three SE. I am very please to say the least!
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Hi Slim,
Just reading your post. It's odd to me that no one pointed out the fact that even your unit (a few steps down from Whest's most costly) has an outboard supply, back when this thread was active in 2010-11. I haven't been to the Whest website in years, but it was not obvious to me that they used an outboard PS, back in 2010, even in their RefV model. Which is one big reason why I was skeptical of the value per dollar, back then. Seems to me that in the $10,000 range for a phono stage, an outboard PS is a must. Perhaps I was too quick to judge (although I hasten to add that I never said Whest products were bad sounding; I only questioned the cost factor.) I would be curious to hear the SE or the RefV. |
I see that this is a very old thread, however I just have to chime in. I just picked up a used, post-2015 vintage Whest Three SE which is a very nicely built phono preamp with an outboard power supply which connects via 2, 5 pin XLR cables. The power supply is a dual mono as is the main phono preamp unit. Each output on the PS is labeled left and right as is each input, so they are matched. What is interesting is that the power supply for this preamp is very heavy! It must weigh in at 4 or 5 pounds as it's a large toroid multi tapped transformer, yet the rectifiers and caps are actually inside the main preamp case. I particularly like the design with the main transformer isolated inside a dedicated chassis and separated by 3 foot long XLR cables. I purchased this unit used when I saw it pop up for sale as you never see them. I had in house on demo for the past 6 weeks the new Musical Surroundings Nova III with the optional Linear Power Supply which replaced a Gold Note PH10 I had for three months.
The Whest bridged the gaps in the other two phono preamps. The Gold Note had very good mid-range performance, but to me it lacked in the upper end sound stage and imaging. The Nova III was far better in the upper end/sound stage/imaging and much more powerful in the low end, but lacked in the mids which I missed. The Whest does it all and its like liquid chocolate syrup warmed. I was amazed at how much better it is. Additionally, its very quiet.
I have been reading quite a bit on the Whest site and the differences between their offerings. What was interesting is how they use an internal suspension system of the main board to isolate it from the chassis in their very high end units; that is something not offered in the Three SE. Last night when I was moving the power supply around (while the system was on at a fairly high volume, but with nothing playing) I bumped the the chassis of the Whest Three SE with my finger lightly and I could hear the 'thump' in my main speakers. That really surprised me as to how detailed this thing is. It was like tapping your turntable and hearing it in the speakers. I tapped the chassis of the Three and it was in the speakers. So what I did was pull out some medium durometer isolation rubbers I have in stock and I put three of them under the chassis of the Whest power supply and three under the chassis of the main Three SE preamp to isolate both from the shelves.
I put on some very high dynamic range vinyl which was nicely recorded in the 1980's (the League) which I had been listening to last evening and I was completely blown away at what I was hearing! The sound stage just exploded open as did the imaging. As good as this unit was before, it just suddenly became extraordinary. My observation is that Whest is onto something with how they isolate the main boards in their reference series gear. Mind you that I stumbled upon this strictly accidentally last night, but it has made me rethink how I will mount this gear. I plan on machining some heavy steel frames with the isolation triangulated feet on the bottom to set the phono stages on the shelving. The weight of the frames, which I may laminate with Acrylic in combination with the medium durometer feet should really dampen the vibration in the room, cleaning up the signal. I think that I just elevated a $4K Phono stage to an $8K item :) |
Well since my GREAT evening in with the Whest PS.30RDT Special Edition I decided to put in into my second system and have upgraded to the Whest top-of-the-line MC REF V MK4. I've read some fantastic things about it and very briefly heard one but had a chance to borrow one for 3 evenings after which I bought one... I had to - read on.
I was quite shocked on the difference between it and the absolutely brilliant PS.30RDT SE. The MC REF V MK4 is in a very different ball-park. In fact it is by far the best I have heard, and I have heard plenty in my system.
I don't really know where to start but suffice to say that my vinyl playback system is at a level that I cannot believe sometimes. I mean it does things that makes me cry and laugh at the same time. It is dynamic and explosive like nothing I have ever ever heard. I will write a small review at some point but I know for sure that I am at the end of my vinyl quest. YES, I am there REALLY!
The high frequency is silky smooth, see-through and ultra detailed. The hf area contains plenty of harmonics that I have NEVER heard before. The mid-band is near transparent with a life-like quality, solidity which is dimensionally so correct that it can/does throw you sometimes. It does not sound like vinyl or audio but music with precision. It's really hard to explain but you lose that feeling of playback system and end up with music. I don't care about interconnects and mains cables as the MC REF V MK4 transends all of that 'stuff' which is so secondary to music. The bass is without a doubt the very best I have heard from my TT setup. The bass is pin-point accurate, deep, pitch perfect and has that 'chest-thump' when needed that phonostages never seem to do properly. Yes, some phonostages produce good bass but it's either flabby or you can't pin-point where the bass is coming from. With the MC REF V MK4 you can hear where everything is coming from because there is so much space around the instruments you feel you are sitting in the performance.
Blue-starfish was right about the qualities of the MC REF V. It is utterly quiet, explosive in dynamics, detailed beyond what you might think vinyl is capable of - in fact it takes vinyl to another level, no make that 5 levels.
Yes, it is basic in terms of facilities but then what do you want? Knobs and stuff to detract you from that lack of audio quality OR pure audio quality without the crap that others put on to bump up the price?
The PS.30RDT Special Edition is a great design. Simple, understated and minimalistic. The gain and load underneath and that is it.
The MC REF V MK4 is the same. You get 2 mono channels. Both are matched and contain everything to get that channel working. There is PLENTY inside one of those boxes to the point that there really isn't that much space to put anything else in. What is amazing is listening to one channel of the MC REF V MK4... it is better than 2 channels of anything else I have heard! It sounds silly but it is quite striking just how much the MC REF V Mk4 resolves.
And as for the price...it's £9990 in the UK and some dealers in the US are selling it for $20,000!
At £9990 it is the biggest audio bargain going since the NAD 3020 :))
The MC REF V MK4 is for me so far ahead of the game it makes others look totally overpriced.
I have a major listening session coming up with a couple of friends who are going to bring some 'stuff' with them to compare - should be a fun evening
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Yes the whest do seem quite minimal for the price. How ever the ref V is cheeper in the US than the UK. It is £10000 in the UK, that is $15000 at least in anyone money.I believe this model is around $12.k in the states. |
My maiden post at Audiogon.
I am blessed to have owned a MC V for 3 weeks now, and I must concur that it is an upgrade over my previous phono which was an ASR Basis Exclusive. But then, the MC V is double the price so it should be a big upgrade.
The MC V is dead quiet, has explosive dynamic headroom and leading edges. But to me, the best part of the MC V is it being hyper-detailed but not analytical. It manages to play music as a whole, yet is so detailed that I can now hear HOW the note was produced, and not just the note. It does rhythms and large scale music pieces beautifully esp brass instruments.
The MC V is made to order with gain and impedences tailored to your specs. Expect a long wait, but it will be worth the wait. Patiently run-in for 70 hrs before it starts to sounds superb.
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Dear DCarol, Keep your shirt on. I was just thinking out loud, as one does during a face to face conversation. I did concede that I had not heard either the Whest products or Raul's phonolinepreamp; I was only comparing the known features of the two products in relation to their cost. I don't believe I referenced any review articles, and you would be right to criticize me if I did; I just went to the Whest website to find out about their products, and I found very little in the way of useful facts that could inform a knowledgeable audiophile. I apologize for my blather, anyway.
V12s ARE better than V8s, if both engines are in a Ferrari. |
Dear LewM. I overall agree with you. Yes, it will be really interesting to " see " inside both Whest's.
I email them asking for specs and their answer was not something that could reflect everything they posted in the internet site.
This is what J. Henriot email me:
+++++ " I have attached a copy of the specification sheet for the 30 Series components. The figures are pretty much the same for all 3 products in the range BUT the audio resolution is COMPLETELY different.
The noise figures are again as low as the PS.30RDT SE but using completely different electronics.
Although our noise specs are extremely low, these do not tell you anything about the resolution performance of the products which is why we have ommited them from the site. " +++++
RIAA curve accuracy: 17Hz 20.5Khz +/- 0.2dB or better
Frequency response: 5Hz 62Khz +/- 1.0dB
Working band: 15Hz 60Khz
MM Gain: 40dB @ 47Kohm
MC Gain 50dB - 72dB to suit all 0.15 2.5mV cartridges
Cartridge Loading 50ohm - 47Kohm in 6 steps
THD+N: 0.002%
Connections: Unbalanced RCA, Impedance Balanced on 3-XLR.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
what really disappoint me after all that " bla, bla, bla, " in its site is that RIAA deviation that for the prices and what said it in that site is " unjustified " because has a swing of 0.4db ( and that " or better " that they writed has no sense: that could means that the quality control on the execution of that design is not " uniform ". ), IMHO extremely high taking in count that the units are dedicated phono stages.
In this regard we are waiting at least 0.1db but 0.4db tell us about severe colorations over the RIAA frequency curve: we have to remember here that due that the RIAA eq. is a curve any discrete/single deviation on frequency affect almost three octaves.
Other two subjects is that there is no noise spec and the frequency band is to short for a well designed SS phono stage.
I never heard the Reference or the Dcarol unit so I can't say for sure about its quality level performance. That beats ASR or the 1008 is a sign but we have to take in count here that either of these competitors ( on phono stages. ) IMHO are not at the top of the " bunch ".
Dcarol, good that you are really satisfied.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
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Lewn: 'I would think that your own phono stage, with an outboard power supply and separate discrete "tuned" circuits for MM and MC, is a better "buy" than either of the top two Whest phono stages. (I have heard none of these, as you know.)'
On what grounds? If you have never heard any of them how can you say or even imagine one is better than the other ;) It just does not make any sense. It's the sort of comment that a hifi dealer would come out with... You're not a hifi dealer are you ?:)
It's a bit like saying that V12 engines are better than V8s.
Just like driving a car tells you which is better, listening to the products will tell you which is better. As for relying on what a reviewer says - I think we've all been there before!
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Dear Raul, I take your point. If they really have done all the things they claim, I can see how the price is justified (but perhaps not the US retail prices for the same items). In contrast, however, I would think that your own phono stage, with an outboard power supply and separate discrete "tuned" circuits for MM and MC, is a better "buy" than either of the top two Whest phono stages. (I have heard none of these, as you know.)
Re the Whest, I would like to know more about the power supply design and implementation (it's hard to imagine how a really state of the art PS could be squeezed into that single slim chassis) and I would like to see a photo of one of their top units with the cover off, so we can see the innards. These are things they could do to support their product better. The website is a bunch of platitudes, like the ones you quoted above, using all the audiophile buzzwords, which is not to say the products are not superb.
On the other hand, I cannot ignore the fact that the end users here and elsewhere seem to love the product, and there are no used ones for sale here or elsewhere except from folks who say they are upgrading within the Whest product line, which probably means I am full of baloney or burritos. Oh by the way, Raul, it is disingenuous of you to dismiss tube phono stages as being simple to design and implement. That's just a silly bias.
Interesting point about ASR. I noticed something similar about the Rowland preamps; there is almost nothing inside those beautiful chassis'. Also, the Graham Slee phono stages use op amps, and, heaven help us, tantalum caps in the signal path (and their website brags about that), yet Fremer and others have raved about them. Go figure. |
Yes Raul
Very true.
The new ASR model uses the same IC chips that are used in the entry level whestTWO! I had a look at the interior of the ASR Basis Exclusive 2010 online, and my collegues 4 year old whestTWO which costs about $1000. The ASR uses 2 of these IC chips per channel. The IC chip is called a THAT 1510p and only costs...$3.00!!!!
If Whest are ONLY prepared to use that chip in their entry level product then what does that say about ASR!
NOW that is a rip!
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Dear Lewm: Reading through Whest site I can understand why those prices that you think are not justified :
first I think that all the time that used the designer on its two top of the line phono stages means the careness he taked to be where is today, the research and tests to achieve top quality performance in any audio item is not only time consuming that means $$$$ but expensive too when you are testing different parts, boards layout and whole design. Remember too that a SS design with bipolars devices is a complex one a lot complex than in a tube design and certainly not a plug and play one till you tested carefully. These guys said that take it years to be " here ".
These are subjects that IMHO speaks why those prices:
- Pure discrete transistor design
- Channel matched RIAA section
- New hand made and matched ClarityCaps
- Matched capacitors and transistors
- Hand selected parts used throughout
- High current and high voltage
discrete bipolar class A design, not an easy task the ASR named here has no discrete design but use several IC's that degrade the cartridge audio signal.
Channel matched RIAA section tell me that this people take care in deep about. Please read and see here the " disaster " that the 30K Dartzeel unit is not only on RIAA deviation but on channel RIAA matching!:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-18ns-preamplifier-measurements
Now, the people at Whest say that parts were not only hand selected but matched: this is way time consuming and means money too because you need to buy a lot of any part trying to match it...
This seems to me a serious approach to a phono stage design where the designer " understand " where the " money counts ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
'Boutique' does not make for a better sound....a great design makes for a great sound! - Dcarol I totally agree .. and the Hi-End history is crowded by fantastic examples of simple projects that sound magical without any "boutique" component. I guess many boutique units disguised poor projects. |
Auxetophone, I think if you look the the chassis of the ARC, Conrad Johnson, Manley and many others you'll find they are just a simple folded steel or aluminium affair like the old NAD 3020. The Whest 30 chassis is a bit more complex than you might think as it is a hand-welded CAD designed chassis and is done that way for strength to allow the internal suspension to work properly. My mates Asthetix Rhea chassis is just a folded bit of aluminium or steel but has a fancy front panel.
Going down the 'boutique component spec' parts is always a dangerous thing. Over the years many companies have failed in giving us decent sounds even though their units are full of boutique. Personally I just trust my ears.
Before I went down the Whest route I owned a Trichord Diablo phonostage which used quite a few 'audiophile graded' components and the Whest PS.20 I heard against it still managed to better it by a mile!
'Boutique' does not make for a better sound....a great design makes for a great sound!
There is far too much crap and hype in this industry and trying to find the real gems seems to be getting harder.
One just needs to look at the whole interconnect/ cable industry and what can be had on ebay or DIYers. What do you do...go with a $2000 per metre IC because it's made with a material only seen on Jupiter and has won 5 awards or go with something that is independently recommended by 150 people that have nothing to do with audio industry and only costs $200.
I would listen to both BUT I've yet to hear a $2000 cable that is actually worth $2000!
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Thanks, Auxetophone. But are you agreeing that the parts quality for the upper end Whest phono stages does not seem to justify their pricing? (Prices in the US market are additionally inflated by the importer or distributor, apparently.) At the same time, I agree that fancy and expensive parts do not alone make for good sound and that there is a virtue in doing more with less. Moreover, one would rather pay for good sound than for parts. |
"My only theoretical beef with Whest is that I don't see where the cost of their upper end products is justified in terms of chassis and parts quality, power supply complexity, etc. Of course, one should not think that way, but still..."
Well, in the here and now, you are right that the maker can charge what the market will bear, but for those of us who can (ok, MUST) wait, it's encouraging to observe that very high performance can be achieved without spending a fortune in parts. Hopefully the competition will quickly react to the opportunity, and bring similar performance at a price more consistent with production cost . . . |
Speaking of "the best tube unit(s)", has anyone compared the Whest to any one of those (e.g., Aesthetix, ARC Ref, Alaap, Einstein, Thor, etc)?
My only theoretical beef with Whest is that I don't see where the cost of their upper end products is justified in terms of chassis and parts quality, power supply complexity, etc. Of course, one should not think that way, but still... |
I never compared my Whest Audio PS30RDT SE to other phono stages in my hifi setup .. so I can't add any other comment to the one posted by Dcarol
I just have had the standard PS30 RDT for almost two years and I agree the SE is another planet even though the Whest Audio soul always emerges.
The SE could be compared to the best tube units thanks to the incredible soundstage 3D ability and its way to carve images like marble in front of you.
My cent! |
