AMR / EMM / PLAYBACK Designs

I am looking at 3 DACs -- AMR DP-77, PD MPD-3 and APL DAC-S. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

My new EMM Labs XDS1 will arrive in a weeks time, I am really looking forward to having the XDS1 for my reference digital playback.

Teenill,

I have yet to set up a server or any other kind of digital music delivery device as currently there simply isn't really any hi resolution digital I'm interested in. Hopefully, the selection will improve sooner rather than later and I can justify such a unit (I have the AES/EBU cable just waiting to be used).

Currently, I have my Blu-Ray player feeding PCM 2-channel via coax into the AES/EBU input (almost all Blu-Rays don't have soundtracks beyond 48 khz and 16 or 24 bit depth which is why I haven't tried anything higher).

The wireworld glass toslink is good stuff. I'm using a 5+ for the rest of my entertainment system into the Toslink of my XDS1.

I want you to try something if you can; check your pm.

Bar81,

I have a modified mac mini (linear power supply, ssd internal HD, 1 TB USB external HD), wireworld supernova 6 toslink to xds1. It sounds pretty close to xds1 internal transport but I think the internal transport has more open & more air in the upper end. What is your music player and how do you compare it with the internal transport?

Yes, I have installed the firmware. Btw, what is the set up you are using for 96/24 and above?

I emailed Emm technical support last Saturday. If I don't get the answer by Tuesday may be I'll call them. By the way, have you updated the firmware? May be I'll up the firmware again and play only standard res tracks for awhile as it kind of more natural with better refine details compare to the old firmware.

I updated xds1 firmware today to 104-023. The sonic imrovement is quite obvious. However, I was quite upset that the player could not lock into hi-Rez tracks at all. I reinstalled new firmware but still got no luck. Had to revert to old firmware to play hi-Rez tracks. Does any one have a better luck?

Teenill,

Have you called EMM to ask? They are probably the best place to start. Unfortunately, I don't currently use the digital inputs with anything higher than 48/24 so I can't help.

Wow, that's not good. I hope emmlabs will quickly release new firmware to fix that bug. Hard to believe, really.

Regards,

I updated xds1 firmware today to 104-023. The sonic imrovement is quite obvious. However, I was quite upset that the player could not lock into hi-Rez tracks at all. I reinstalled new firmware but still got no luck. Had to revert to old firmware to play hi-Rez tracks. Does any one have a better luck?

Rilou,

I would like to know on what musical spectrum such talk is better than her rivals

i answered that with the fourth post in this thread here.

and also what quality of components and manufacturing and completly made in US?

i answered that with the first post in this thread here.

if those posts don't fully answer your question feel free to ask another one. be as specific as you can.

Thanks Mike,

I would like to know on what musical spectrum such talk is better than her rivals and also what quality of components and manufacturing and completly made in US?.

Thank you again

Thank you for trying to convince me with the values of the device you recommend me to purchase such as PD. WHY ?.

again; i'm not sure what you are asking but i will try to respond.

WHY?

why do i write about the Playback Designs? it's what we do here. we talk about our experiences. particularly when someone (in this case you) asks a question.

why do i try and convince you? i don't look at it that way; i'm sharing my perspective, not intending to convince or not to convince. i have no 'agenda' other than to enjoy the community of fellow audiophiles.

did that answer your question? if not, please ask your question in more detail.

Mike, Thanks for the reply, everything is clear with this answer, I could not get the chance to directly compare the emm XDS1 and Playback Designs.
I already have the Emm DCC2 SE and SE CDSD I already sold.

Thank you for trying to convince me with the values of the device you recommend me to purchase such as PD. WHY ?.

Thanks.

Rilou,

'leading advertising'....not sure i get your meaning.

i am guilty of neglecting to update my system page as far as all the details, here and on audioasylum for a few years, sorry. i've had the Playback Designs MPS-5 (and the EMM Labs has been gone) since the summer of 2006 (or 2007?....i did get a very early PD) as i recall.

there always seems to be something more important to do....like listen to music.....spend time with my wife....etc.etc.

i promise to 'intend' to update it soon. don't hold your breath....

if you read my posts on my system page they tell the story of my system progress over time. there are a few of them to get through however.

best regards,

MikeLavigne

Leading advertising How do you convince me you recommend me the Playback Designs and you have Emm Labs least the pictures of your audio system. just desolate reality and truth.

Suteetat,

Thanks for the well thought out response to my posting. I think that the PD and the XDS1 are both great machines but that they will appeal to different buyers. Likewise, the choice may in the end be somewhat system dependent. A lengthy review of the XDS1 will soon appear in www.dagogo.com.

Frank,
How would you compare the PD with the APL?

Two things:

1. In my opinion, Andreas Koch is not only a very skilful designer but also a very nice person.

2. Several NWO owners have the PD at home and, from what I know, they like the way it sounds.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Alex

I think the comment regarding EMM sounds more similar (or accurate) in comparison to Lyra Titan/Rockport is interesting. I have not heard Lyra often enough and never heard A90 but I do think that Lyra house sound certainly seems to be in the same family or closely related to EMM.
Tonally, in my system, PD has more in common with my Dynavector XV-1s (running through Ortofon T100 SUT) than EMM although I think Dyna has even fuller body and more weight as a whole and a bit more of the thick (in a good way), smooth extended top. EMM is probably more similar to my old Ortofon Jubilee but not quite as punchy but similar leaner sound than Dyna. I do not find PD excessive in the bottom end nor unnatural sounding. However, personally, I am more interested in stereo system that makes everything sound more listenable. There is no reason to sacrifice great performance that happens to be poorly recorded. Just my own preference....

FYI; there is a new review on the Playback Designs MPS-5 in this month's Absolute Sound (i saw it and read it last night) written by Jacob Heilbruun.

Jacob has a first class system with top level analog as a reference (he owns a Continuum Caliburn tt).

hi Sam,

you are always welcome and it would fun for you to make another visit.

yes; it was a treat and learning experience spending time with Andreas.

the King/Cello is sitting on the right side of the room with the Studer and Ampex. it's setup with the darTZeel BNC interface and really sounds lively and vivid. i need to get a better rack for it (it's sitting on a plant stand for now) as i'm sure it would benefit. i've pulled out some of my pre-GPA treatments to optimize it's situation for now.

currently it's only being used as a tape repro. however; i'm tempted to add another tt over on the right side as Myles and Rich Brown assure me it's an excellent phono stage too. i was thinking of a Technics SL-1200 Mk? with a modest arm and cartridge.

a few months ago Ki wired the switch into the heads on the Studer and that is still the way i'm using it. one of these days i'll have Ki wire a switch into the Ampex ATR-102 too so i can play that through the King/Cello.

Mike,

That's awesome to have some quality time with Andreas! Actually, I'm actively researching the vintage Studer line from R2R to mixing consoles...I'd like to have access to a multichannel Studer R2R :-)

I hope to hear your reference-class system, again, particularly with the King/Cello electronics...is it set up for repro only? Did Ki do the work?

Happy Fourth!
Sam

My standard of comparison when I auditioned the PD in my home for anout ten weeks was my Rockport Sirius with a Lyra Titan i and later swapped out for an Ortofon A90. I did not have a reel to reel for comparison but am familiar with Albert Porter's totally rebuilt Studer A810. Based on that, I felt that the EMM Labs XDS1 was more accurate.

as far the Playback Designs viewpoint on the sound, whether it has too much weight, is too forgiving, or 'adds' something.....i can only say that whatever it's doing along those lines, my 3 tt's do and where i have a 15ips 1/4" master dub playing on my Studer RTR deck/King-Cello repro of the same recording they do it similarly too. it's hard to find a better sonic reference than that.

pianos, drum kits, violins, vocals; the weight, body, decay, harmonic texture......all resemble the analog sound.

the leaner, flater, more 'crisp' sound many like is not the Playback Designs character; neither is it any of my tt's or my RTR master dubs.

which is real?

or more properly...which does one prefer?

there is not only one answer to that.

Andreas Koch (PD designer and for many years the EMM digital designer) visited me in my home last week; he was here in Seattle with his family to go on an Alaska cruise. we had a long talk (he talked, i listened) about how people listen and how the PD has different sonic priorities than other digital players. when i put on a few master tapes on the Studer (Andreas worked for Studer 25 years ago and headed a team which developed the digital recording version of my Studer A-820--his college room-mate designed the analog output of my A-820) it was fun comparing that to the digital from the PD.

Okay, good news. Firmware 104_023 for the XDS1 has passed QA and can now be found at the EMM Labs website. This solves the SACD distortion issue with multiple digital input switches, improves digital input locking and includes the "subtle" sound quality enhancement. Unfortunately, the password for firmware files has changed and I have no idea what it is.

Hi Frankg, actually, I agree that the PD had more forgiving, sweeter, and well, better highs than the EMM, and also that it is more organic. And yes, it does have more weight in the images, but I felt that the images were overweight, and there was some sort of pounding I just did not care for. Maybe because I have had EMM so long, I am just used to it. The EMM never pushes anything at me, and seems to draw me in, and seems to have a "real" sound, something like the realness I remember with my old Apogee Stage speakers.
The EMM highs can be a little raw on some CDs, and I noticed that the same CD did not have this rawness on the PD, but is sounded like the the PD was somehow altering the sound in a strange way, and, as I mentioned, I just kept feeling that the sound was "wavy." I've been through a number of players (Meridian 508.24, Accuphase 75V, Sony 777ES and now Sony 5400ES) and I've never come across this particular affect. Maybe it was just my player, but that's all I have to go on. So, I am sticking with my trusty EMM SE pair (can't afford the new EMM gear).

For those of you who think that they have heard the PD, you really have not heard it the PD unless you heard it with the Wave Kinetics Vibration Source Control System that Chambers Audio is encouraging PD customers to use.

Its so good that I dare say it should be sold directly with the Playback Designs unit. I am not sure why its so effective because the footers on the PD seem quite good but these items neutralize vibration so well that the redbook on the PD truly soars. The focus improves, the detail improves, and the overall presentation is just so much better.

"How would you compare the PD with the APL? "

Excellent question. Frank, I also would like to know your opinion.
Thanks
Rafael

Frank,
How would you compare the PD with the APL?

Hi Rgs92. I too was a long time EMM fan. I just loved the clarity of the EMM units but they tended to be edgy in the highs. The SE version cured that to some extent. My last EMM gear was the DCC2 SE and CDSD SE like you have. I traded mine in for the Playback Designs player which I liked better because to me it still had the clariety but with more weight to the images making it a little more organic or less edgy on a wider variety of discs.

I don't understand your impressions of the upper bass/lower mids as I don't hear that at all. Maybe it's a matter of different associated equipment. I run mine throught an Ear 868 tubed preamp to Lamm 1.2 Ref. monos to Talon Firebirds with diamond tweeter. It's a very resolving system and the PD sounds wonderful in it. I also run an APL NWO4.0 SE direct to the Lamms which is also wonderful.

I would love to hear the XDS 1 in my system sometime.

Frank

I tried the PD in my home with various headphones w/tube & solid state amps as a possible 1-box alternative to my EMM SE separates(CDSD-SE + DCC2-SE). I liked the tonality and ease of the PD, and actually thought the SACD on the PD was, well, perfect. But the PD on redbook lost control of the lower mids, upper bass and vocals and sounded, for lack of a better adjective, squirmy or wormy and kind of hurt my ears. The contrast with the EMM showed the EMM's wonderful control of all sounds, with a balanced presentation that is just plain truthful-- not warm, not edgy, not syrupy, but still liquid, with very solid, well-articulated bass.
EMM just gives the music a great foundation. To repeat, it is very controlled (I think that factor appeared earlier here). The PD highs were a bit sweeter even on badly recorded discs. I think that is why I liked the PD SACD sound just a trifle better than EMM, but not enough to matter much.

So, call me addicted to the EMM take on things.
(I just wish the CDSD transport wasn't so noisy, but it varies with each disc. It's not just my CDSD, I've heard a few. The noise varies from sample to sample.)
But it's worth it to me for that wonderful sound.
I really love EMM...

I am under the impression that this update is a sound quality enhancement (again, it has been described as "subtle" so owners should temper their expectations, but, in my system, the enhancement was significant) and bug fix. I know that, mechanically, the inputs are capable of 24/192 and I understand that this feature will be enabled in the future but I do not have any more information than that. In any case, given the dearth of music available at that quality imo emm should be commended for focusing on the core sound quality of the player and bug fixes prior to adding checklist features that are currently not particularly useful to the great majority of owners.

Bar81, thanks for the information, I will let my friend knows since I was at his place a couple of weeks ago, he still did not know about any fix on switching input problem between high rez and SACD. Also, do you know if the new firmware will make XDS1 accept 24/176 and 24/192 input?

Suteetat,

With regard to your earlier point, the issue with the SACD and switching inputs appears to be resolved. And you haven't heard anything yet. The upcoming firmware update (just a few small issues left to iron out) takes the XDS1 to another level; it is subtle but significant if your system is resolving enough (and I thought it was impressive when I bought it back in November).

Bar81, I did not mean to imply that EMM only works well with incredibly expensive power cord.
It kind of surprise me though. Usually, even with stock cables, I expect a unit to work ok and give a reasonable performance. Better matched cable certainly should elevate the performance. However in EMM case, it seems like wrong cable can significantly deteriorate the sound quite a bit.
I never listened to it with stocked Kimber cable however.
My friend is now reporting also good result with Stealth Dream and he will compare Stealth to Elrod again before he make his decision on power cord.

Please note that the XDS1 comes with a very nice upgraded power cord from Kimber. This is not ultimately what you will want to use but may be satisfactory in the short run. Power cords are easy to change, SACd players much harder.

There is no need for all that. The VH Audio Airsine with Oyaide P-004/C-004 is fantastic with the XDS1 and it is nowhere near the Elrod's price point.

I changed my mind a bit about EMM. The other day, I spent several hours listening to XDS1 in my friend's system with top of the line T&A active speaker, McIntosh preamp (can't remember which one). The first couple of hours, using Kubala Sosna Elation power cord, I still was not impressed. The sound on many tracks was thin, piano was very clear but too light weight for my taste. However, when it Elation cord was replaced with Elrod Gold Statment, it sounded much much better. I don't think that Elation was a bad cable but may be it just did not match well with EMM. Perhaps the same could be say of Synergistic Research Tesla T3 cord that I used with EMM. Unfortunately EMM is already a stretched for my budget, throw Elrod on top of that, it is not healthy for my bank account so I think I'll stick with Playback for now.

Its sounds to me that the Ayon CD5 would be better than the Play Back Design if you want that warmth, but the Ayon may be more open.

Yes indeed. I found lushness in the PD whereas the Emm player sounded more neutral.

Did you find the Playback design to sound a little closed in compared to EMM. Like comparing moving magnet to moving coil.

I have also had the PD MPS5 and Emm Labs XDS1 for extended listening in my setup. In the end I clearly preferred the Emm Labs, it sounded more controled, dynamic, neutral and above all with blacker backgrounds (really impressive here). The PD is more flexible tough given its array of inputs and 24/192 capability.
At the end of the day I bought the XDS1.

Two thoughts, 1) surprisingly, given the huge power supply, the XDS1 is very sensitive to the power cord used. It particularly likes the Jorma Prime and the Stage III Zyklops. Each sounds a bit different but both bring out the best in the unit. The PD is less sensitive to power cords. 2) Likewise, the EMM Labs benefits from good mechanical isolation as do the top of the line Esoterics. It particularly likes Cerabases. The PD works pretty well with the factory supplied feet.

I have had both the PD and XDS1 in my system for extended listening as well as some of the Esoterics and I am buying the XDS1. Each of the others does some things better but taken as a whole, the XDS1 nis the one that I chose to live with long term.

I now have PD in my system and it is not even well broken in yet but so far I am very impressed.
It sounds like Berkeley DAC on steroid. I found its sound closer to Berkeley than EMM XDS1, surprisingly. Whatever Berkeley does well, it improves it while at the same time, it corrects many of Berkeley weaknesses, much better controlled bass, excellent pacing and rhythmic control. With XDS1, I felt like it did many things better but at the same time, Berkeley did certain thing that was crucial to me better.
To me, EMM is more hifi-ish where as PD is definitely more analog and more musical. However, some friends who heard EMM in my system also heard EMM XDS1 sounded better in other system so some of these is most likely system dependent as well.

Fcrowder and Docmark: You Listen XDS1 and PD
What the buzz the BETTER in terms of musicality.

Fcrowder, I also own an EMM Labs XDS1, and I agree with you. It's easily one of the best players I've ever owned. SACD is wonderful, and standard CD playback is also great. I use one of the digital inputs with my Blu Ray machine, and the sound is phenomenal. Movie soundtracks come alive. No regrets with this purchase.

I cannot speak to use of the EMM Labs XDS1 as anything other than a player, but in that mode EMM Labs has been extremely successful in addressing earlier criticisms. The transport mechanism which is sourced from Esoteric works flawlessly and the time required to access tracks is similar to other top brands. The build quality is excellent, certainly much improved over past efforts. The unit appears to be very well thought out and very nicely implemented. The manufacturer is also quite helpful. I also like the fact that many functions are software based and any upgrades can be easily accomplished by reprogramming and do not require hardware changes.

I have not heard the EMM gear, but I do seem to read about a number of issues with the gear (now including their $25K flagship) is this the case? Or are these isolated idiosyncrasies which are quickly rooted out and nulled?

Let me again stress that the sound of the unit is much impacted by the choice of power cord. I have tried a number of cords with which I have had success in the past, including the Stage III Zyklops. With most of these cords, the mids were a bit lean for my tastes and the bass was not right. Some of this is undoubtedly breakin related. The cord with which the unit seemed to lock/sound right to my ears was the Jorma Prime with Prime balanced interconnect. I have friends that have also had excellent luck with the Odin power cord and interconnects. It is too early to say whether the unit is ruthlessly honest or a bit lean, but it has great potential.

Suteetat, EMM lost me when they made everyone buy that Philips SACD 1000 transport. Whenever someone describes a problem, I always think back to the beginning.