Forgot to answer the question about what I drive them with. Well here is something I could talk about for hours. We could not have a bunch of gear in our living room so I had to search for a downsized, yet wonderful solution. I listened to many integrated amps including the Devialet. I ended up talking to Neal over at Sound Science who sold off $30,000 worth of separates for this Lyngdorf 2170. Well I decided to try one and my goodness was this piece special. It is a preamp, amp, room correction, dac all in one box. It actually sounded as good and in some ways better then my wonderful separates including the TRL Dude preamp, Luxman DA06 dac, expensive cabling, and Von Gaylord Triode Lengend monoblock tube amps.
The room correction in this Lyngdorf is amazing and the diffference maker. It is 100% digital from beginning to end with the signal going to analog just before powering the speakers. So the internal dac is really not a dac in the conventional sense.
I also have have a very highly modified Cary Rocket 88r that I also use with the Lyngdorf at times as I must always own a tube also. It is so highly modified that you would not recognize it as a Cary any longer with the expansion chassis and all I did.
Enjoying the new home and system and looking to get the very most out of these already very good speakers. |
Loved the 40.1’s! We moved to Franklin, TN and downsized. I lost my dedicaded music room and now share a space in our main living area. The home is new with cool tone colors like white kitchen, light gray walls, black granite etc... and my wife felt the Harbeth’s just didn’t work in the space aesthetically. I also agree though hard to admit:)
The good news is I have always loved the Crescendo speakers and was lucky enough to get a used set in gloss black that my wife also loves. (Great price also)Turns out I like the Crescendo even more 😊
I looked inside the speakers for the first time and like most $10,000 - $20,000 speakers I have taken apart I saw sand cast resistors and other obvious places that could be improved. Still blows my mind that a speaker of this expense uses 89 cent sand cast resistors that any good DIY guy knows sound just ok, and a tad harsh in the highs compared to a Mills MRA for example.
I love the speakers and will leave most of it alone except for the resistors and caps on the tweeter and mids. All else will remain the same. I assume the film caps used are middle of the road at best based on the resistors and inductor quality used. I am not certain, thus my question. |
Yes Robert’s design is not in question as the speaker is awesome. The crossover is very complex with many parts. 15 resistors and 13 capacitors per speaker with many additional inductors. Easy to see why one could not use Duelund level parts! |
Ha! Yes indeed. I putting a game plan together. Most of the caps are polyester types (MET). Better MPT caps are used on the mids and tweeter. |
Seems nobody knows? Well I have decided to go with Duelund CAST resistors and deciding between Jupiter HT flat stacked caps or perhaps Jupiter VT round caps. |
I will report back. Using the very good Jupiter flat stacked HT caps on the tweeter and midrange drivers. Using a mix of Duelund and Mills MRA resistors also. I will remove the crossover board behind the top woofer and do the best I can to fit these much larger parts.
The caps are huge. For example the 6.8uf cap has a 4x4 inch cross section! I am replacing a 4.7uf, 6.8uf, and 12 Uf caps.
I am am not changing out the caps on the woofers as I simply don't have the funds 🙂 |
Well my wife and I are now empty nesters and we wanted to move to warmer climate and an area vital musically and economically. We did a ton of research and Williamson Country (Franklin, TN) just south of Nashville seemed ideal. We visited a couple of times and loved it. No state income tax, reasonable real estate tax, wonderful live music all around, great climate, nicest people I have encountered in any geographic area I have lived...
There is a spirit of creativity and entrepreneurialism that is wonderful here. Folks are happy and so much to do.
We love it here!
No wonder it is one of the fastest growing areas in the country and real estate prices are going through the roof! |
Thanks Charles!
For you Crescendo owners this is not an upgrade for the timid. Getting the crossover board out is tight and requires patience. Not enough extra length or slack on the driver connections makes it difficult. Tight space!
Once it was out I realized I needed to buy more caps! All the parts are matched precisely thus I had to pay extra to do the same.
I should be be able to finished the job next weekend once all the parts are in. I will take pictures and post also. So much easier to do this up front😬 |
Need to purchase 5.6uf and 22uf caps for each speaker in addition to the 12uf, 6.8uf, and 4.7uf caps mentioned above. I will now have to devise a way to load these much larger parts on a board that fits.... |
I haven't even mentioned the 8 other caps in each speaker! Values up to 68uf and 100 uf. Well then there are the 14 resistors. Dont even talk about the scores of inductors.
I agree Charles it is amazing how good they sound with all these parts. Robert knows what he is doing and is very talented. |
Big kudos for Robert of Acoustic Zen who has responded to my email questions and helped me. Nice man willing to help a DIY pain in the rear like me:)
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You are so right. Most just kind of scold you verbally and think your nuts:) |
Ok, I finished the upgraded crossover board and just installed them. A ton of work. Imagine replacing caps that are 1/2 inch in diameter and 2.5 inches long with caps almost 6 inches long and 4.5 inch diameter! Had to get it all to fit into the same space. Initial results seem most excellent. The thing I noticed within 20 seconds was the absence of noise, music flowing out of a dead quiet backdrop. The difference over the standard crossover is astounding in this regard. Already I hear more resolution combined with greater space, body, texture and improved natural tone. I also hear a greater sense of ease and natural flow. Only 2 hours thus far. I will report back after 24 hours.
i will try and post pics in a link as you have to see the before and after. |
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There is also an additional board on the very bottom of the speaker that I have not touched as yet. It is for the bass drivers. Unfortunately it contains two 1000uf electrolytic caps! The two resistors on the bass board are sand cast and will be replaced with Mills MRA 12. As for those 1000 uf caps I will think on my plan of action. I cannot believe how many parts are in this crossover. This is not your simply first order type.
I believe it is a 3rd order Linkwitz/Riley design. |
Jet, those TC caps are the best I have heard in a power supply! Hard to fit because they are so large however. The Arizona Blue Cactus caps are wonderful for coupling. Wonderful tone. |
Charles, thus far the improvement is so gratifying. My wife commented last night that the system sounded beautiful and the presence of the performers was an obvious improvement. |
This is the amp I am using to drive them right now. It started its life as a Cary Rocket 88r. I modified it to the hilt with.... - all high quality film caps in the power supply (Clarity TC, ASC, Obbligato) and increased the capacitance. Needed to add a wooden expansion chassis to fit the film caps in the power supply. A double decker build. - Arizona capacitor blue cactus coupling caps - Western electric NOS hook up wire - Mills MRA resistors - Moved the RCA jacks right next to the input tube and also made more direct connection in addition to shortening the signal path - removed all electrolytics caps and replaced with Clarity and Theta caps. - removed binding posts and use Teflon posts to "clamp" the output transformer leads directly to the nude speaker cable. - direct soldered high quality power cord There is more, but you get the idea.... Here are some pics. http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/slideshow/Cary%20Rocket%2088r%20upgrade%20and%20mod |
Jwm, I have built and owned all manner of soft annealed silver speaker, IC, and hook up wire for signal path in amps. I have always used cotton also with this silver. This is very subjective and just my preference, but silver has always caused my tinnitus to flare up due to what I describe as tipped up upper mids. Just could never really smile with silver in cotton. Although using a little bit of it in my mods does add some nice resolution. I do make all my own cables out of Duelund stranded copper that is tinned in oil impregnated cotton. It sounds fantastic to my ears. Jeff Day and Jim Smith both have had the same experience even though, they like myself, have listened to all manner of wire.
If if not for my uber sensitivity to upper mids I would certainly enjoy silver wire far more! I certainly hear what it does so very well. I have not listened to every kind of wire produced, who can, but thus far the new Duelund wire is my favorite. |
Wow! Hand braided cotton.....he is all in DIY for sure. |
Owners of this fine speaker I have some news for you. After only 24 hours of consistent playing with the upgrades I can hardly believe what I am hearing. As music lovers and audiophiles every once in a while we experience an upgrade that just causes you to rest deeply into recordings you know very well hearing them seemingly for the first time. This is happening as I type.
It’s as if someone placed a monster tube amp with the finesse of the finest SET amp and the scale, control, and swelling stage of the best tube amp beast in my system without me knowing. I keep looking at my rack thinking something must have awakened and changed my Crescendo speaker. No, no changes other than the crossover. The change is nothing short of extraordinary. Here are some short thoughts running through my mind based on this afternoons listening session.
- never heard the music grow and swell with this kind of beauty and control as I turn it up.
- wonderful layering and waves of musical experience with the speakers being lost, meaning the sound is not coming from drivers here or there...
- new levels of impact and dynamic impact
- where is the noise I thought was never there in the first place? No kidding. I think those old sand cast resistors were causing the less refined sound I never knew was less refined.
- Improved resolution is easy to hear, but it is served up in a completely natural and meaty way. I love the beauty of the mids and highs.
The problem is is I can’t tell you what exactly is causing this remarkable improvement. Is it the new caps? Which ones? The new resistors? The aggregate of all the improvements? Most likely.
l replace the forest of sand cast resistors with a mix of these;
- All 20 watt sand cast replaced by two Mills MRA 12 in parallel.
- All 10 watt sand cast replaced by both Duelund standard and Duelund CAST.
Each of these resistors has has its own strengths and a mix seems to work very well indeed. I matched all part values within 1%
I am sure the original metalized poly caps do not sound as good as the paper, foil, and wax caps now in place.
I spent about $800 on the upgrade and improved the speaker in very real and important ways for me.
Keep in mind mine are MKl, not MKll. I am not sure if the newer version has any real changes in the crossover. If you see a sea of white sand cast resistors and AZ labeled poly caps, then you have opportunity.
So so why not build these with better parts upfront and change for a plus version? They should. It is a job to do it after, but possible.
Ok, I will keep posting as the hours build.
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I purchased the Duelund resistors at Parts Connextion over 50% off the retail price. The caps were also on sale. I saved a good amount of money for this job.
I suppose the price for the Crescendo with upgraded crossover parts would be pretty high with additional builder and dealer margins etc... Perhaps $2500? Maybe more.
Anyway, I will report back middle of the week. I suppose the burn in process could take things south for a season.
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Jebe1
Robert answered one question I had as an inductor and resistor were on the board and not soldered in the circuit. I wanted to confirm he meant to leave them out of the circuit. He did make a change and decided the speaker sounded better without these parts in play. He also offered to help to should I have any other questions. That is the extent of what he helped me with.
The 40.1 speakers are amazing and every bit as good as the Crescendo speaker. I sold them for aesthetic reasons in our new home and shared living/listening space. I would say the Crescendos go deeper and more powerful in the bass while the 40.1s seem to play all types of music and poor recordings well. They are so smooth and easy to like while the AZ speakers are more dynamic and resolving.
The upgraded AZ speakers just widen the gap in improved resolution, dynamics, and refinement.
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Enjoying my music again tonight. Cassandra Wilson night. So wonderfully beautiful as she is in the room with me. |
Nice post and thanks Tim! |
Amen! Nina Nastasia - The Blackened Air is playing right now. Wow! |
Tonight we have an additional 70 or so hours of burn in. The sound has changed a bit. Even more relaxed, in a good way, and even more natural sounding. The sound has opened up a tad and is just wonderful. I find myself listening to recordings that in the past sounded marginal at best. I find I can now enjoy these less than ideal recordings like never before.
What I love most is how real my music sounds. Real and engaging in a special way. Instruments and voices do not sound recorded, but real in my space. |
Steakster, I will give it a listen and thanks!
Audioman58, my thoughts exactly to be frank here. It was a ton of work putting in the parts that should have been used upfront after the speakers were built. Mills or other good resistors would have cost perhaps $3 each instead of $.30 cents each. A $20,000 speaker should use a $3 dollar resistor :)
I see this all the time in high end gear however and it does cause me to shake my head.
Audioman58, I still have the bass boards to upgrade. Each speaker uses two 1000uf, 100v caps. Yes they are low cost electrolytics. Any suggestions here? These boards have 8 ohm and 12 ohm 20 watt resistors which I will replace with 2 Mills MRA 12’s in parallel. But the caps? Not entirely sure a better electrolytic cap from Audio Note will help much here or not. Film caps in parallel would be very expensive and perhaps take up too much room. Not sure bypassing electrolytic caps with film bundles is advantagious on a bass crossover board. I know it works great in amplifiers, but crossover boards? |
Absolutely a good price used for a great sounding speaker in stock form. It is a wonderful speaker! Along with the Harbeth 40.1 it is the finest speaker I have owned and I have owned many good ones! |
@audioman58
Like your thoughts on my question above. Thanks much.
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Peter thanks so much for the post. This is new to me and I need to learn more about it. I will see if a can become more familiar with the idea and implementation. |
Peter, I did figure that on the caps. Thank you for sharing this option. |
@pbnaudio
Have you done this? I ask as I wonder if this will make these cheap electrolytic caps sound as good as decent metalized poly caps? Very interesting.
So I hook up 4 nine volt batteries in series with the positive lead of the first battery going directly to a 1mohm resister then to the junction point of the series caps and the negative lead of the last battery going to the negative return of the low pass circuit. That simple? I better test that no DC is getting through. The electrolytic caps should be non-polar correct?
Thanks! |
Well my speaker does use two 1000uf caps per speaker so you are saying to bundle film caps and replace those electrolytics? The cost will be outrageous and I am not sure for bass frequencies it is worth it. Just imaging buying 20 -100uf caps per speaker! Will they even fit! The cost is crazy high.
@pbnaudio suggestion would cost very, very little and I have read that this battery biasing approach does indeed sound very good. As good as film caps on the bass Board? I don't really know. |
Ha! Charles, I can’t resist😀 I do honestly believe the bass can be improved with even the low cost battery bias mod. I know JBL and Vandersteen do it with great results. Peter who makes wonderful PBN speakers also shared it would be an improvement. The thought of those poor sounding $5 electrolytic caps will never settle well with me.
The bias mod would cost about $150 total. I think that is a modest investment for improvement. Plus I learn and execute a new mod that would be fun. |
You are right that the dreaded caps still manage to produce great bass. Design is always the most important factor. This parts thing is next, but still important. |
I understand completely Peter. Thanks for sharing that link. I love the idea of building a nice kit like that. Great idea. I think the designer of my speaker did what was reasonable with the bass board. No doubt about it.
I like thinking and planning on ways to improve what is reasonable and done with perhaps more cost constraints in place for the builder. |
@pbnaudio and others. The two 8 inch woofers are parallel wired. I have drawn out the circuit and taken photos of the board. Please take a look. The 1000uf caps, smaller inductor, and 8 ohm resistor all seem to be included parallel to the amps output to raise the impedance of the bass filter. Two 8 ohm woofers in parallel would deliver a net impedance of 4 ohms. The builder wanted to keep the speaker friendly to tube amps and thus implemented this impedance filter. The speaker is 6 ohms nominal. I am not sure if this impedance filter reduces the impedance peaks of the vent/port and drivers or raises the nominal woofer impedance the amp sees? Or both? Question. Will the quality of the parts in this impedance filter impact bass quality? On paper it seems like no, but I know from experience they can very well have an impact on sound quality. Thanks in advance. http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/library/Bass%20board%20crossover |
Peter thank you so much. I will leave all alone except upgrading the sandcast resistors. |
I now think the tweeter and mid board is fully burned in and the end result is spectacular to be sure. I plan on upgrading the binding posts in the future as the final step in the transformation of this great speaker. A great design that is begging for top end crossover parts. The drivers are very high quality as well as the speaker cab. The crossover design is first rate. Robert should be proud of his effort with this speaker and the crossover upgrades I performed just helped his fine design be all it could be! I changed no part of his design or schematic. I did not mess with values.
I think Robert should offer this speaker with upgraded crossover components as the speaker responds so well. The Super Crescendo option would cost more, but there is a market for the upgraded speaker I have in my home. |
Sherod, I have sent him my before and after pics and asked some questions, but no answers or responses since his first initial response.
You can do it yourself easily. Your speaker is not as complex. Several great on line pictures and examples of others upgrading the speaker. The values are printed right on the caps and resistors. Easy to see and order! Don’t change out the inductors and order the parts matched within 1%. The Mills MRA resistors are already within a 1% tolerance. They are only $4 each at Sonic Craft.
I just finished my bass board today. They sound so much better after the upgrades! All owners would be so pleased and impressed with the NEW speaker!
Be sure to use two MRA12 resistors in parallel when replacing 20 watt sand cast resistors. For example you need to replace one 8 ohm sand cast 20 watt resistor with two 16 ohm Mills resistors in parallel. You can replace the 10 watt sand cast with one Mills MRA12 as they are rated for 12 watts. The sand cast resistors are clearly marked. Get those sand cast out! All of them must go.
I can tell you the speaker is so much better sounding after the upgrade. I thought they were wonderful before, but now I know what I had no idea I didn’t know:) |
Finished the bass board upgrade and again I am happy with the results. Nothing like upgrading the mid/treble board to be sure in terms of total improvement, but a nice little improvement in bass resolution or articulation. Very slight.
If someone else wants to upgrade their Crescendo speakers, I would be happy to help any way I can. I would suggest an outboard crossover if you have the room and a spouse that is ok with it. Good idea to get these parts out of the vibration woofer box😎 Behind and under woofers are not the ideal spots sonically for crossover boards. It would be fun to place them in external boxes With vibration mitigation footers etc...
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The speakers are now totally broken in and sound so wonderful. They sounded great after just 24 hours of break in, but now have improved in the areas of openness, ease, and realism.
I am actually thinking of getting another set to do the same exact mod, except putting all the parts in an external crossover! We will see as I have to run it past my wife. More boxes in the room :(
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Ok Crescendo owners I have an upgrade you can do and it will cost you nothing. It will improve your sound in real immediate ways that you will notice very easily. If you are somewhat handy you can do this! No soldering.
The mod is to bypass those aweful sounding binding posts. This is better than spending $750 on those top end posts. It just is.
Here is what you do.
1) Remove the binding post plate on the bottom back of the speaker by removing the 4 wood screws.
2) Mark the wires going to the top and bottom binding posts. Cut them off right at the solder point on the binding posts. Make sure you have enough wire to protrude out the plate some 1.5 -2 inches as well as enough extra slack to work with the plate. You can pull out more slack by carefully pulling the wires toward you if a couple of more inches are needed. Be sure to reseat the black putty covering the small hole the wires are coming out of behind the plate.
3) Your plates are now free to work on. Drill two holes in each plate to pass the wires through. The holes should be between the top and bottom set of posts. Like this...
post O post
post O post
4) Run the wires through the holes and seal the back of the plate with more putty/plumber putty etc....
5) Thread the wires through he holes of the proper post. Be sure to strip enough bare wire to extend just beyond the plastic binding post nut on both sides.
6) Now you can place your spade or bare wire around the post just behind the hole with the wire going through it. The binding post nut will simply clamp your speaker cable run to the internal speaker wire for the best sounding connection possible.
The result will shock you. I do the same thing at the amp end for double improvement. The posts on our Crescendo sound bad folks. Bad.
Email me me for Pics! Contact me through Agon and we can go from there.
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The mod is easily reversible should you desire. Simply plug the holes with a nice looking black cap/plug and resolder the wires as original. Music just sounds more real and less electronic. Improved sense of the instruments there with you in the room. |
Sorry, but I don’t have anything like that to help. |
The speakers were sold some time ago and I don’t have any notes to go back to at this point. |
Shipping is always a possible issue depending on how rough they are on them. In terms of why I sold them, well that’s what I do! Build.... sell. Modify ....... sell. It’s part of the journey. |
