Carl, very good thoughts, all presented politely. We're having a friendly debate - it IS possbile on Audio forums!! :)
Brief answers to your points:
#1 (without any trace of condescension!) You have a sonically limited system (i.e. small, bookshelf speakers), so will hear almost no distinctions between cables. It takes a much higher end collection of gear to reveal well what diff. cables do.
#2 I believe you are personalizing/misconstruing my comments. I was for over a decade extremely finanically limited in audio expenses. I had several permutations of cheap rigs. For many years when entering the local audio shops I announced myself as the "Bottom Feeder" (as in aquariums, picking up the leftovers). I admit I was a cheapskate in terms of cables. My cheapness was not solely due to budget, but also my perspective. I didn't believe in them and wasn't about to spend on them. Of course, my rig couldn't show what they could do, so it was a circular conundrum.
#3 You do not have enough experience and the correct gear to make the sweeping declarations about cable performance that you did. That's ok, prior to my conducting the tests and learning it, I pronounced similar errors. At some point, you have to trust someone who's done the work if you haven't.
#4 While subjectively high priced for some, loftier prices can be justified for almost any technology that offers elevated performance. Indy car costs a BIT more than my car, and drives quite differently. My office system is worth a fraction of the equipment I use at home, and it's priced accordingly. It offers enjoyment, but that is not to be confused with elevated performance.
Your "theoretical ceiling" is too low. At least three times, maybe four, I have had to radically alter my conception of what is possible in terms of performance in audio systems. Each time I thought I was near the "ceiling" or limit. Each time a new system absolutely destroyed the previous experience. The range of quality/performance is FAR larger than you think.
#5 Re: What does an Electron sound like?
The question is based on the sarcastic statement made often by cable skeptics, to the effect of the constancy of cables being, "electrons flowing through a wire". The thought is that the signal is merely electrons and metal, so it can't have variability.
My point is WHO has established definitively, objectively that Electrons flowing in various metals cannot sound differently (i.e. have a constant sound)? It is presented by skeptics as fact, when it has never been demonstrated. AS such, it should be kept to opinion, rather than stated like it's some kind of law.
IF experience is not in the speaker's background, then they are off base to declare something as fact if there is no data to verify it. I have had enough experience with rigs and cabling that I am unafraid to challenge the status quo or perceived wisdom on the matter. I do not believe anyone has actual data showing that cables cannot sound differently. If so, I want to see it.
To my knowledge, only DBT is used as the "evidence" of "all cables sound the same", and this is woefully insufficient to me to prove that claim, for the reasons I stated earlier.
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As usual, Blindjim, you see quite well...
Interesting that you also found the efficaciousness of grouped cables. Yes, it's tougher to gather all those "loose ends" via second hand purchases.
Your comment is spot on: "The system’s cabling can be both it’s limiting, and enhancing factors." The voice of someone who has experienced it.
Conducting proper tests of cables as suites is not impossible for the average man. Yes, it ties up some cash in the interim. I had $4k extra tied up in used cables (beyond the price of what I had put into my current cabling) when I was comparing them. That's not chump change, but neither is it a home wrecking amount. I have been an audiophile for more than a quarter century, so it was commeasurate to my experience and budget. I knew that once the comparisons were over I would liquidate the cables and recover nearly all my money. The price paid to conduct the tests was marginal, well worth it, and in the end I wound up with a slightly less expensive brand and recovered some of the costs of the prior set! When I did comparisons, I sold off the loser and moved on to the next. Financial limitations restricted me to comparing only two sets at a time, but that was enough. After several rounds I knew far better what appealed to me in a cable design - one of the most enjoyable for me was one that I have not reviewed, Harmonic Technology. It's sound is similar to the Wire World Cables that were just posted in my review a couple days ago on Dagogo.com. (They also have a striking similarity in design - use of larger numbers of small Gauge conductors to achieve a larger total Gauge, which I feel is more than coincidence).
The other factors are time and inconvenience; as a hobby many want to simply sit and listen, not chase wires, conduct deals, run the comparisons, and then sell the unwanted cables. It did become a pain having to work all the deals to pull all the used cables together. For those who are not up to that I will not call it laziness. However, if one wants to learn a great deal, push their rig to the limit, etc. then it is necessary (unless you purchase from an audio shop and let them outfit you). But, just as there are tightwads, there are also lazy people. Between the two, most are not willing to actually DO what it takes to get the job of comparisons done. I'm not hacking on anyone! It's just the reality of it.
I don't put in any significant time/money at all on hobbies/activities I'm not deeply passionate about, and I don't expect others to either. So in those areas I'm cheap and lazy. i.e. Sports clothing; I don't spend a penny beyond shoes and discounted jackets, cheap sweat pants for winter, etc. for running outside. I am a casual jogger, not a hard core runner. I'm cheap with money and uninterested in pushing to new levels of distance, intensity on runs. So what? We all have our prioreties and marginal activities. I can say I'm a "runner" but even though I do it consistently, when it comes down to it, I'm not a "runner's runner".
Similar, I begrudge no one to take the title "audiophile"; we all want the community to grow. But, being a casual listener is a far cry from someone who's trading gear, running tests, etc. for self-education on component matching, cables, syngergy, etc. Someone who's doing years of that is going to gain a lot of hands on experience. That's just the way it is. And along the way the once very strongly held beliefs will change quite a bit from their experiences, a maturing process.
You are absolutely correct about even "sibling" cables being different enough to make purchasing decisions complicated even though buying one brand.
If the universe of cables is seen as a frustration, since finding the perfect cable can seem impossible, take heart, people, because that same sea of wire is also your opportunity! It's a tremendous blessing that so many affordable cables from so many manufacturers are floating around. Anyone, at any price point can do the comparisons for themselves. One caveat; I have said consistently that the nuances in cables begin to reveal themselves on rigs of at least $25-$30K on up. This is not elitism, it's practicality; it takes a certain level of gear to lay out the intricacies of cables. On rigs of $75- $100K these things are usually apparent. It's just mechanically the way it works. It's crass to put dollar signs on it, but it's a realistic, practical gauge that's born out countless times, and those who have heard very high end gear know it.
I have not made a final decision on whether proper cable selection is dependent on the genre of one's system (i.e. low powered SET amps with high efficiency speakers, or full range speakers with high power tube or solid state). I must study that, hopefully in the near future by hands on experimentation. I was surprised to find that David Salz of Wire World does not voice his cables with a true full range system, but concentrates on the midrange, knowing that with his design if the midrange is correct, the full spectrum will be correct. From the sound of his cables I cannot argue with his method.
I have learned something surprising, which was not anticipated - that just as certain box components appeal to me, certain cables appeal to me, and I prefer them on ANY system to date. At this point, it seems that when a particular brand of cables appeals to me, it is universal and not subject to the normally expected "system synergy" idea. I did not expect that. Also, consistently, cables which do not appeal to me sonically are less enjoyable on any rig. I do not believe I would have found that out if I had not pursued testing sets of cables. In a mixture how can one isolate the pleasing sound of a single wire? Years ago I would never have dreamed that I would say I prefer certain cables no matter the selection of components. It is happening now in my reviews, and I will watch that dynamic carefully to see if/how long it holds up with different electronics.
So, comparing sets of cables has a tremendous benefit for the person who really is keen on learning and pushing their system to the "brink of perfection"!
Wow, I've nearly written a book here; I need to step away and get back to listening and writing. :)
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An additional thought; I find it remarkable that so many engineers and experts in acoustic theory who work at designing cables are written off as hucksters. Of course the industry has its share of bad apples trying to pawn off knock offs, etc.
But I'm taken aback by the hubris of someone who knows virtually nothing of the laws of acoustics dismissing persons with degrees applying their knowledge. The more contact with cable designers I have through reviewing, the more I am humbled by their knowledge and inventiveness in addressing what they see as intractable problems in conducting a signal. |
Blindjim, yeah, I'm not normally so intense. That was debate and rhetoric. I do enjoy rhetoric and debate (possibly subsumed under the category of seriosity), upon occasion.
I guess I'm intense in arguing for the merits of cables; it seems to me over the years that of all components they get the shaft the most. Having denied their differences for years, now that I'm working with them on a daily basis and hear the changes constantly, I'm more aggressive about defending what I'm experiencing. Similar to a smoker who quits and is intense about how harmful it is.
I try to distinguish between a good argument/debate and a fight. Rhetoric and persuasive talk is fine, but personal name calling is not good. I don't want fights; they're no fun. Most of the time I try to be relaxed, like a fine audio system. :) |
My turn to weigh in... Arrogance masquerading as superior knowledge. I see fair bit of that here. Could it be that the superior knowledge is none other than the received wisdom, ("everybody knows" or "we data-driven people think...")? As for actual experience,well, that's not necessary!
How many of you who dismiss cables have actually conducted tests yourself, using entire sets of cables to swap and compare? No? (I know, I know, you have your well placed excuses: Too expensive, Rediculous idea, So & so can't hear a difference, Not logical, etc.) Well, then, I would suggest you have not much to say in the matter, except a lot of hot air.
I think we'd cut through a lot of the crap surrounding the measurements/hearing debate regarding cables if people would actually DO the listening tests for themselves instead of prattling on about measurements.
Blindjim, I have a special affection for you - I like your down to Earth style and humor. I also like your openness to admitting your earlier prejudices against cables and that you were open enough to examine them by actually trying. I really tire of the blowhards who pontificate "scientific reality" when they have zero experience (after all, why try something that you KNOW is wrong?).
Two statements:
1. SKEPTICS HAVE INCREDIBLE FAITH IN THEIR DOUBT.
You will find that despite the opportunity to test and see (hear) for themselves the reality of the situation, some will never do so, for they are absolutely certain of their own disbelief. They will argue until blue in the face, yet not be willing to TRY it for themselves. Their doubt is their intellectual master. I find that many times sheer cheapness, maybe we could call it "Tightwad Syndrome", is at work. This is an ardent opposition to different cables due to simply being a cheapskate. In such cases any argument against their efficacy is glommed onto, for it supports the notion that they can get just as good results on the cheap. It's not universal that these two go hand in hand, but I would say the majority of cases.
They will lambaste those whom they deem to be "unscientific" and subjective, all the while not realizing they hold a priori (i.e. Not verified by science) assumptions. Are those assumptions based on hard evidence. No,they are not. They are assumed. Yet, somehow these assumptions, i.e. "Electrons flowing through wires sound the same," or regarding Power Cables, "...the last three feet of wire cannot effect the sound." etc. are supposed to be accepted as fact. I would like for any of these intelligent people to kindly supply the answer to my second point.
2. IS THE SOUND OF AN ELECTRON A CONSTANT?
Please supply the answer, if you can. Well? Does an electron make a sound? Is the sound variable or constant? Do materials such as dielectric, conductor, or geometry effect the sound?
How many of you ardent skeptics know these answers? Does ANYONE know the answers? To my knowledge no one does. Then why the dogmatic demands that measurements have demonstrated anything about the inability of cables to sound different? The last time I checked we do not yet have a standardized test to demonstrate that the sound of (caused by) an electron is a constant.
Am I supposed to believe that we live in a Nano world (visually, temporally, materially) and yet sonically we are to be kept in the 19th century where there cannot be an infinitude of refined gradations and nuances? Do you have any clue how archaic the perspective is that, "...all wires sound the same"? We have the new science of Chaos Theory and yet sound is somehow exempt from being touched by such complex influences? Come on! Get with it!
Musicnoise, please present for us your personal experience in testing suites of cables to demonstrate your rather pointed assertions, which I quote:
"Buying a new power cord promises to improve your sound system, but is hogwash. What is not defined in the audio hobby are things like the choices made by a conductor - whether it is more authentic to play Mozart on period instruments, or what Beethoven was conveying with notes to his works. The effect of cables and power cords is not subject to other than emperical [sic] evidence. The rest is akin to two headed babies, aliens from Alpha Centauri, and the treatment of arthritis with chicken bones. Basing your decisions on other than emperical [sic]evidence backed by scientific theory was the whole basis for the old sideshow - and the buyers of the tickets were referred to as 'rubes'. The only benefit to high priced power cords and speaker cable is to the seller."
Care to expound for me on the sound of an Electron? No? Then, I think you've gone to a lot of bother to produce worthless analogies. However, you have clearly demonstrated your incredible faith in your doubt.
Finally, if anyone is going to do such comparison tests, do them correctly, by using sets of cables for the entire system. The influence of cabling is cumulative; swapping them individually will not always produce the consistent results in hearing their distinctive qualities, whereas swapping sets will almost universally reveal differences. This is the primary reason I seek to always review cables in complete sets.
If you're not going to bother to do your homework (actually working with the gear and testing things), then maybe you should preface your comments with, "I'm ignorant about this, but I think..." |
Carl, semantics doesn't get you out of the problem; faith/belief, confidence, whatever you want to label it. I called the question on the topic of the "confidence" of the skeptic that all cables sound the same. So, I'm the skeptic's skeptic (in other words, I'm not going to blindly believe everything that is proffered as "fact" by those proclaiming there's no difference). I placed the burden on you and anyone else to demonstrate that an electron has a sound that is a constant. No reports? No measurements? Then, the issue is not air tight, is it? Then, pronouncements that cables all sound the same are unsubstantiated, but rather are subjective opinions.
As to point #1, I assumed the topic of blind testing would arise, and it doesn't hurt my argument in the least. I assert that blind testing works. I also assert that cables have distinct sounds to them which are easily ascertainable. Both are true. However, the human is notoriously incapable of the precise recall necessary in a DBT to successfully isolate and match specific sounds with a low margin of error. I believe Randi knows this and uses this to his advantage. The fact that we humans are far less precise in matching sounds (There are plenty of studies showing our inconsistent recall visually, so why should it be different with hearing?)has no impact on the question of whether cables sound differently from each other. So, I hold that both are true: Cables sound distinct, and people are poor at DBT. In other words, the methodology is inappropriate to the task. This is yet another reason why examining sets of cables is far superior to individual cables used in a DBT, as the cumulative effect of a collection of cables is far easier to hear - in fact, so easy that no blind testing is necessary.
As to point #2, I'm not so rich, but in this instance I already have put my money where my mouth is. I have laid out the bucks to perform the comparisons with sets of cables prior to reviewing. I continue to compare sets of cables as a reviewer. To date I don't recall (ha, get it?) any set of cables which was not easily/clearly distinguished from another set. (This is assuming an approx. $30K+ system, as this IS a factor in assessment!) In some cases the distinctions are alarming, every bit as significant as box component changes.
I'm sure you find that hard to believe, or shall I say, have confidence in, or have reason not to doubt...? :)
So, now I ask you: What does the price have to do with legitimate distinction in sound? You say, "...but when the prices of some of these cables can cost more than many components, I don't think it's unreasonable to want a little more than a string of glowing adjectives." I take that to mean that when someone might describe a difference between economical cables, you would be more inclined to believe them, but if the price is high your suspicions are aroused. So, then, it's the price that triggers your suspicion, disbelief? You don't trust reviewers or individuals who have tested these things with all manner/prices of cables? The higher the price, the higher the doubt? So, a cable which costs more is more suspect in terms of performance because of its price. Hmm... Sure, the wallet speaks to us, but we should acknowledge the bias, that we tend to disbelieve the report merely because of the price of the product. So, the claimants do the tests, but they are not believed when the price reaches X dollars... I'm glad I discovered this information about cables on my own dime; I can say that I formed my opinions on this topic apart from reviewing. No chance for anyone to suggest ulterior motives. I paid for the information; consider yourself benefitted, as though I did a self-funded public study. If you don't want the benefit of the information, so be it. Some will take it and find out I'm right.
Many (if not most) reviewers acknowledge that occasionally there are cables which are true bargains (Stereophile in its 2008 Recommended Components issue, April, had alongside pricey cables one "DNM Stereo Solid Core Precision" - at $12/ft/pr). Surprising? Only mildly, as there will be a spread of performance from wires ranging the cost spectrum. Occasionally a 'freak' cable is found which does perform at an incredibly high level. But it is sheer nonsense to suggest that typically bargain/run of the mill cables perform the same as cables that are designed to perform better. Now, if only someone could prove that electrons all sound the same... Again, I guess these engineers, designers know less than the average Joe. I guess they're all hucksters and rip off artists, without any sincerity built into their designs. Especially, when the price reaches X dollars!
BTW, I have developed my own "Law of Efficacy" to guard against insignificant distinctions in cables. I assert that the difference in sound must be immediate, clear, repeatable. One should not have to question if things are different, it should be obvious that its different, and immediately so. It should also be demonstrable to others, whether audiophiles or the uninitiated. If one has to strain or wonder if it's different, then it's not different for practical purposes.
Carl, do you mind sharing what components, cables and speakers you're running? Why not post your system; pics are unnecessary.
Wishful thinking does not make cables sound the same. |
Carl, I listen to a narrow niche of music, mostly Smooth Jazz, Solo or small group Instrumental, and Synthesized instrumental. Many of these discs are from the past 5-20 years old, so they have escaped the "Compression Wars".
Most of these discs not to have the compression issues that are being encountered. So, I may not be the best one to answer from that perspective.
However, the principle is that a better system will sound better will all kinds of music, and with all media. In my experience the time/effort has been extremely well worth it, very well rewarded. The most rewarding of all was the investment of time and money to build a dedicated listening room. It took my experience to a completely new level, FAR more advanced than ever before. I have had manufacturers, distributors and enthusiasts comment on how good the room is for audio. I poured my heart and soul into it, and every single piece of equipment I use presents itself wonderfully.
In the cases where the music has sounded "worse" due to a major upgrade in components (which include cables!), I judge whether ALL music sounds worse, or just the poorer recordings sound worse. If it all sounds worse, the upgrade is no good, and the sooner you admit it, the better it is because you can move on. If just the poorer recordings that sound worse, it's because the equipment got better. |
