A question about tube rolling


Hi Ya’all,

At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.

Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit

I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.

Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.

But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.

It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.

it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.

As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.

A week later, he brings me four more sets.

One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).

I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.

They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.

Which was exactly the point of the exercise.

But I digress.

The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.

This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”

So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.

So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.

Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.

Holy. Efffing. Crap.

Let me say that again, for effect.

Holy. Effing. Crap.

I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.

This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.

I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.

They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in

So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?

unreceivedogma

Showing 18 responses by unreceivedogma

@mattw73

@mulveling

I’m committed to the Pro-ject Tube Box for budget reasons. I’m not going to spend $15,000 on a phono stage when my entire system is about $45,000, spent over a 45 year period, or in other words, about $1,000 a year. If someone wants to recommend a phono stage that’s no more than $2,000, I’m all ears.

And, I have these weird little boxes in the chain, just before the amps, “BBE Sonic Maximizers” https://reverb.com/item/74294033-bbe-282ix-desktop-sonic-maximizer that I learned about from a guitarist friend. They are $90 each and probably everyone here is saying wtf but they WORK, as long as you don’t use them as tone controls. They adjust the phasing, and in doing so they make the sound more detailed and present. So big $$$s is not necessarily better. Black cat white cat whatever catches the mouse.

You may ask: but you spent all that money on the Koetsus? (I have a rosewood signature as well)

I paid nowhere near full price for the Leopard, and the (old original) onyx was a gift from a quite famous rock musician ( he allegedly had four of them) who will remain unnamed for fear of being accused of name dropping. The only hint I will provide is that he is an ardent environmentalist and he heard through the grapevine that I played a not insignificant role in keeping fracking out of NY State and that my Koetsu Black, at 25+ years, was reaching the end of its life, that I was budget conscious and decided to help me out.

As for the results I’m getting: this guy goes around the New York metro area and up into New England, into dozen’s and dozen’s of people’s homes selling hi end gear, and tubes in particular.

He shows up with a tube tester and a bag of 20 or 30 or so pairs of tubes, and we stick ‘em in the phono stage, and I listen to specific tracks that I have memorized over and over with each set. While he listens for maybe 30 seconds and then based on that, rummaged through his bag looking for the next set. After doing that for an hour or so, he leaves 3 or 4 sets behind for a week so that I can burn each for 24 hrs then listen.

I was at his home, his system is much more modern and his amps alone cost far more than my entire system. Nevertheless, on the last visit, I put in a fourth set, and instead of listening for 30 seconds then running to his bag, he just stood there and listened to the entire track. He says that “I’ve worked on so many high end systems, I’ve never stepped back and listened to an entire track before. This system is not just better than almost anything I’ve heard. It’s different in a way that is totally …” and I forgot the word he used but it was along the lines of “caressing in a completely enveloping” sort of way.

And yes, tubes are known to change, for worse but also for better, not just over weeks or months, but over years.

And yes, I’m lucky to have found this guy who happens to live in my neighborhood so to speak. It is a blessing from the audio gods, to be able to try stuff out before you buy, as some tubes have a terrific rep but when you put them in they are just “meh” and I’m talking about British Mullards for example.

@trivema I’ll post a list of the tubes later. The ones with the “nirvana” are mCp-something. He is a big fan of Valvo, and those in fact have been the best. They leave Telefunkens in the dust.

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

@newbee 

I listen sequentially for about 15 minutes each, one cut from each of three LPs. Then we pick three or four pairs that he leaves behind for several days. That gives me time to burn each set in for 12-24 hrs, then listen for 2-3 hrs. 

@mulveling 

re: Pass Labs Xono, XP-15

It is solid state. 

I tried three Graham Slee products. I did not like them for two reasons:

- the sound was “flat”, not holographic. 
- they were not flexible. With the Pro-ject, I can “dial in” the cartridge. The setting is different for each one: 50 for the Onyx, 75-100 for the Leopard (still trying to nail this one down), and 25 for the rosewood signature. 

For whoever asked: his name is Brien Grant. 

friends@chickoregg

He asked that you please use my name as the referral. 

I have a high degree of confidence in him. He is sort of obsessed about tube quality. 

I asked the expert audiophile “DeepSeek” 😝 to: compare the Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 to more expensive phono stages. 

ANSWER: 

When comparing the **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** to more expensive phono preamplifiers, it’s important to consider the additional features, build quality, and performance improvements that come with higher price points. Below is a comparison of the Tube Box DS2 with some of its more expensive competitors:

---

### **1. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Sutherland Engineering PH3D**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design, aluminum chassis, and upgradeable components.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally clean, detailed, and transparent with a neutral sound signature.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a focus on precision engineering.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH3D offers superior transparency and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for audiophiles seeking a neutral, high-fidelity sound. The Tube Box DS2, however, provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **2. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Audio Research PH9**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Audio Research PH9**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionaly detailed, dynamic, and spacious with a tube-driven sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH9 offers a more refined and spacious soundstage, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a fraction of the cost but lacks the PH9's ultimate refinement.

---

### **3. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and neutral solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a robust design.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Black Cube SE II offers exceptional clarity and detail, making it a favorite among audiophiles who prefer a neutral sound. The Tube Box DS2, with its tube warmth, is better suited for those seeking a richer, more colored sound.

---

### **4. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Simaudio Moon 310LP**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Simaudio Moon 310LP**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and dynamic solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Moon 310LP offers superior clarity and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **5. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. EAR Yoshino 324**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **EAR Yoshino 324**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The EAR Yoshino 324 offers a more refined and luxurious tube sound, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a much lower cost but lacks the ultimate refinement of the 324.

---

 

### **Conclusion**:
The **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** holds its own against more expensive phono preamplifiers by offering a warm, detailed tube sound and versatile features at a mid-range price. While more expensive models like the **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**, **Audio Research PH9**, and **EAR Yoshino 324** offer superior refinement, detail retrieval, and build quality, they come at a significantly higher cost. The Tube Box DS2 is an excellent choice for those seeking tube warmth and high performance without breaking the bank. However, for audiophiles with larger budgets and a desire for the ultimate in sound quality, the more expensive options may be worth the investment.

@tomic601

Well, that’s where human discernment comes in. Perhaps you are challenged in that regard? You certainly excel at virtue posturing.

I find it to be a very useful research tool. I rely on my cognitive capacity, such as it is, for the rest. 

I asked brien why I should pay more by factors of 2 to 4 or more, when I can find the tubes on eBay for $250 to $400 a pair.

His reply:

“You’re right you can find cheaper ones. But how did you come to know these tubes even existed? How did you come to know this exact pair is terrific not on paper but in your system? How many sets of extremely rare and valuable tubes were lent to you for weeks on the journey to finding these tubes? How much is trust worth?

You aren’t paying just for tubes. You are also paying for me and the unique service I provide.

You’re also playing at the top of the market. Some of my clients will drop $5-$10k every six weeks. They buy things like this to stockpile them.”

I am not inclined to disagree with him.

He strikes me as a good and earnest guy … and deadly serious about tubes. His knowledge base is absolutely insane and that alone - as he says - is worth something. Please remember to say that I referred you.

@mulveling

Back to the Pro-ject Tube Box that you sniffed at.

If I am able to hear a dramatic difference between the German Telefunkens at $280 and the Dutch Valvo mCt or whatever they are at 5 times more, … in other words, if the Pro-ject Tube Box is capable of revealing it, then it seems to me that’s a valid thing to do. I did a DeepSeek search for comps, then did much more research on my own, and it seems that the Tube Box, like the Sumiko MMT compared to, say, The Arm, sounds nearly …. maybe not as, but nearly … as good as the stuff costing far more. And that’s an economic circumstance that I have to live with.

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

@mulveling

I have gone through a number of devices in the $500 to $1,900 range. Nine to be exact. Most recently, Graham Slee, three of theirs, including their top of the line model. I settled on the Pro-ject.

I am doing well right now with the path I’ve chosen. I have slowly built up to the system configuration that I have over 55+ years, since I built a Dyna70 as a high school freshman. I am 70 now, and on the other side of heart surgery and a gall bladder removal less than two years ago. Docs say I have another 30 years in me, but after that I know it could end tomorrow. So. I have been using these last two years in a new home where I could build a dedicated room and get to an end point with upgrading. I want to be done with messing with new toys. The Pro-ject is within budgetary reach. I picked it because it is versatile. I like the idea of having three sets of tubes for different types of music. A more expensive box precludes that in my budget.

Tomic was being snarky. I snarked back. I don’t like snark, as it’s a conversation ender, but when I feel that I have to, I can snark back at the best of them. It’s the Newyawka in me I guess. So no apology.

@mulveling 

speaking of snark. 
 

I will be selling a Benz Micro. 

I’ll be using my iPhone camera. It’s what I got. 

No worries: I’ll make sure there’s no dust bunnies. 😉 

@mattw73

He definitely knows an amazing amount of stuff about tubes.

He is sort of an archeologist of tubes. He can talk your ear off all afternoon.

I am that way with vinyl LPs. I have 6,000+ here, and I can talk for at least a couple minutes and sometimes much longer about each one without referring to AllMusic or Wikipedia.

@inna sort of nails it. I’m just staying with this for now and if Trump fails to crash the world economy within four years, which after the sheer chaos of just the last four weeks makes me doubt the wisdom of spending even on these tubes, I may - may - be willing to spend more money.

I really didn’t post this to get into a discussion about the other parts of the system, which can be seen at the bottom of the ‘about’ page here: theaudioatticvinylsundays.com. I am sure that if we go down that rabbit hole, someone(s) will have a problem with the Altec Lansing 604C speakers, or the Beard P505 preamp (I’m running the Pro-ject through the tuner line stage), or the VPI table, or the Sumiko MMT arm, certainly the BBE sonic maximizers etc. Someone once had a problem even with my NYAL Futtermans, even though Stereophile did a gushing review of them 5 years ago, claiming that they may be the best amps ever, certainly among the top 5

My point was simple: I used to think: get good Telefunkens, RCA, GE, Mullard tubes at a not unreasonable price and call it a day. The Pro-ject came with crap tubes. I bought some Telefunkens from Brian, he as luck would have it happens to live a half hr away, I drove over to pick them up, he says what about these, these, and these, he lets me take them home as loaners, we do this again in another week but he brings them over and he hears for himself, then we do that again, and again and then we have built up some trust and I say wtf throw the best tubes you have at me, he drops off 5 pairs …. And ONE of those pairs was WOW. And I never thought that tubes actually could justify those kinds of prices and could make that kind of difference. I was wrong. Hearing is believing. This one pair made a huge difference, and some of the others are significantly better than the Telefunkens that I started with.

So, this is a new world for me.

@wsrrsw don’t get me started on speaker wire/cable connects 😂 . I have tried over half a dozen expensive cables costing between $500 to $2,000. They made almost no difference, at best they sounded a teeny bit different and certainly not appreciably better, and even much more certainly the price in no way justified it. Some of you undoubtedly have seen my snark about taking chain link fencing, attaching the ends to RCA plugs and connecting up my system with that and getting …. Excellent results! Jon Specter, who converted my Futtermans to triode, also says not to waste money on cable, put it somewhere else.

Thank you to all who have participated on this thread

 

@mulveling

The prices on tube phono stages seem to go from $500 to $2,000 and then jump way up.

audio research: $12,000.
https://www.musicloversaudio.com/product-page/audio-research-ph9-phono-preamplifier

that’s 35% of what I have spent on the entire system.

All right one of my comments was removed. Again.

I've about had it with audiogon. 

@hiend2

@dseltz

 

Please contact me through

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

it seems that cannot respond to you via messages withought giving audiogon my credit card number. Go figure.

I hope you two see this, the @ did not link to you. 

If I may add: since I am a guy who is busy with things on my plate other than sitting around listening all day, that Mr Grant has been exceedingly patient with the pace of my decision-making.

Another plus! 
 

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com