Markphd, poor logic. Like saying of a car, "If the engine in the car was better, there would be no point in changing the tires to performance tires."
Nycwine1,
Question: Is this supposed to be a "no compromise" speaker? Are your expectations for its construction/quality realistic? I ask because it's not too often that a speaker considered primo is ripped into for modifications. Is this a new, high profile speaker which has shocked you at the construction, or an observation about a speaker which is less than "only the best"?
My guess is there are a lot of ugly internals in many high end speakers, especially ones which are not going to be opened easily. Back to the car illustration; a lot can be happening under the hood. |
Markphd, I assumed you would return with such a response. I need not have an identical agent internally and externally to make my point.
Pray tell precisely HOW the components on the INside of a speaker will improve the cabling running TO the speaker from the OUTside? It can't. To assume that if the INternals of the speaker are superior the EXternal link is less critical, or need not be improved is flawed logic. The only way this logic is sustained is if the external cabling's efficacy is largely written off. I assumed you had taken that position, and it appears that you confirmed it in your last post.
In fact the better the speaker is constructed (assuming that performance will follow), like a fine race car (with high performance engine) the more critical the external cabling (like tires) is, if one is to achieve the best performance. In this particular case, the external cables become more important as the performance of the speaker rises, since the speaker will reveal the quality (or lack of it)of the speaker cables, ICs and PCs. (I could alternatively suggest the higher performing speaker would reveal superior synergy between components, or the lack of it.)
You seem to fall prey to the faulty conclusion that if the component is made well enough, the wire leading to it is negligible. Wrong. In a system every part is critical. Any element which deals with electricity and the signal are equally important. You first post here simply dismisses (or downgrades the importance of) the external element - the cable. That's a huge mistake. The statement, "If the inside was done really well, there wouldn't be anything to improve upon by changing the outside wires," shows ignorance on the subject.
It is inconsist to suggest that futzing with speaker components internally will yield improvements, but that the wire externally is negligible. The reason you have reached this conclusion, it appears, is that you have a limited budget, or in principle do not want to spend a lot on cables. (I am not judging you; I do not know your financial situation. However, you seem to make it clear that money is a major influence on building your system.)
You seem to speak authoritatively with(it appears)little experience. You say, "But I would expect cable improvements to be more subtle since there are fewer variables to work with when changing a cable as opposed to an entire component," and "I'm not wealthy enough to experiment with a lot of cable changes anyways. So if my thought are wrong, I remain happy in my ignorance. I feel no need to change anything." Those are the words of an intellectually stubborn man.
In other words you have nothing to offer other than your logic. No experience, no direct comparisons, just a judgment. You seem to dismiss cables as less important because they are not as complex as box components). Which is more critical, the brain or the artery? For the circulatory system to operate at its optimum both must be functioning at a high level, even though it might be argued that one is more complex than the other. Similarly, both the "brain" (components) and the "arteries" (cables) in the audio system must be of a high level to assure optimum performance. I think the illustration is clear. You may disagree, but if it is without experience in matters of testing/comparing cables, then you have nothing other than your assumption and (in my opinion)faulty conclusion.
I agree with you on this point, that the distinctions between cables are subjective. However, with fine equipment and in an excellent listening environment the changes often are anything but subtle. Pricing is going to be every man's own issue; I have on the whole found that cheap cables sound cheap. Not exclusively, but many times you do get what you pay for, and of course, different brands may offer better bang for the buck.
Recently I visited an audiophile nearby. He had AntiCables throughout his rig. He was not satisfied with the sound of the rig. I brought over one pair of Wire World (I wrote the review on Equinox 5 Squared cables for Dagogo.com) ICs, and after a moderate length listening session put them in. The difference was shocking, even for me. He immediately began asking for information on obtaining them. I heard the difference clearly in two seconds, and it took less than a minute for me to conclude that (at least in that system) AntiCables do not sound good to my ear. They left a huge amount of information behind which did not get transmitted through the speakers. Based on that experience I likely would not use them in any of my rigs, as I would be gutting the system's performance. On economical rigs their effect would likely be less noticeable.
If you have a lower end rig (I never dismiss or disrespect persons who have a limited budget, and have equipment at a modest price point. What gets me upset is when they try to dictate what can happen using gear at the higher end of the spectrum) you will likely feel justified in your conclusion because you have not heard such differences. If that is the case, you need to realize that your experience does not preclude others from experiencing extremely significant/important benefits from cabling leading TO the speakers.
You are an intelligent man, and think things out well. However, in this case I believe that experience would impact your perceptions and conclusion. :) |
Uru975, Yes, I concur; you have stated in a more artistic fashion the importance and influence of the system. |
Tony, two words: Do it. You won't believe what you can improve with the sound with some good PCs. You'll kick yourself for not doing it much sooner. If you're leery buy them used here and have at it.
I will tell you this; Power cords were the last of the cables to be "well received" by me. I also was hesitant to believe that they would provide such an important link. They do. In fact, I am becoming convinced with time that they are as important as speaker cables and ICs.
Anyone who has a high end rig and is using stock cords is choking their rig's performance.
You are missing something important. I don't have all the answers as to how, but when you try it you will very likely hear it easily. One explanation is to consider a length of chain. If one link is composed of plastic, then the chain can be compromised if stressed. Now consider that the chain (for most practical purposes) in audio begins at the outlet, NOT the first component! If that first link (and other links leading from the wall) are weak, then the system will suffer.
Sure, someone can rebut the illustration, but I tell you this directly. Your rig IS good enough to hear the differences easily. You should be able to hear vivid, immediate, very significant changes with power cords. Likely you could hear it even if changing out only one, but multiples will very significantly change the sound. You will likely love it! So, go with the brand of cabling you like, and...
DO IT! :) |
"If the inside was done really well, there wouldn't be anything to improve upon by changing the outside wires."
This is an authoritative statement (based on your own supposed authority). You offered no experience. I took exception to it. You still have offered no experience (aside from a nebulous reference to "37 years"), and no direct argument to counter.
"...if you have difficulty addressing the substantive point"
I did address the substantive point, quite throroughly. Actually, I had VERY little difficulty addressing the substantive point. You have not addressed it. I believe it is because you cannot. You have no leg to stand on, which is why you turned to an appeal to your intellectual pedigree. If you are offended by an allusion to lack of experience, I apologize. However, that does not make your statement in the OP correct. You may have little experience with high end audio systems, stretched over 37 years.
"I have five university degrees...In view of my education and experience, I am quite capable of forming my own opinions. I need neither your agreement nor approval."
But you could try to defend your OP logically, if you can. It smacks of inexperience and illogic. I would sincerely like to hear your defence of your OP rather than bluster. You're quite confident that your intellect has led you to the right answer. So be it.
Ah, the painted line; some will insist it's solid, others that it is dashed. ;)
It has been a pleasure arguing with you, sir. :)
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Learsfool, allow me to challenge you on this matter. What has been your experience in terms of changing cables? Have you ever attempted to use higher end power cords? Have you ever used two sets of cables (PCs, ICs and speaker) to ascertain differences between them? OR are you merely arguing from logic?
The reason I say this is because you're speaking in terms which make it appear that you have not really worked with many cables, such as, "I think... I think..." In sincerity, I ask what you know from experience?
Also, the point of argument was not price (at least not for me), it was efficacy. Having used cables in the dozens I have heard in general that cheap cables sound cheap. Better designs will cost more, sometimes reasonably so, and sometimes not.
Frankly, price seems to be THE major argument used against cables, and I feel it's a very poor one, as there are cables of all types and pricing structures. I think the audiophile protests too much who downgrades the influence of cables because they're too expensive. Usually what lies behind it is a feeling of distrust, and self-assurance (as Markphd so aptly demonstrated).
I'm sure many here feel that I think cable is too important. My guess is that in general those who have very high end rigs and have actually done the work of comparing cables (likely a very small number)will agree with me that connections are the least of it (i.e. cleaning the connections). The cables are critically important the higher the level of system.
One of the most maddening aspects of this debate which ranges ON and ON is that people continuously offer their logic, as opposed to actually DOING the experiments. And this is not an arena where a collider or lab is required; it's as easy as can be!
It seems the default argument is that cables are too expensive, dealers shuck them off on unsuspecting persons with too much naiivity and too much money, etc. How this relates to actual performance is beyond me. Trust me, I know all those arguments; I used to BE a cable discounter (no, not a salesman, but one who "discounted" the benefits of cables). Do I get too worked up over it. Probably, but it's not easy to see very intelligent people consistently glossing over beneficial improvements to their system based on faulty logic or bias against perceived businesses "out to get their money," or as you put it, "something to do with an extremely high profit margin."
All of the argumentation about pricing is tangential to the actual point, which is DO cables make a difference. Those that actually DO the comparisons usually realize they have efficacy, and when used in a suite have a large degree of efficacy.
One advantage I have as a reviewer is that I am under no compulsion to buy the cables I use. I also have vowed to share exactly what I hear in terms of their performance. If people want to believe that I operate out of motives of trying to make cable manufacturers look good so they can sell overpriced wires, so be it.
Ten years ago I would have been right there with you guys. I would have argued the best I could that wire was wire. I have too much experience in the matter now to take that position. My question is, what is the actual experience level of those who suggest cable is not that important? What I often find is that their experience level is not all that high.
Maybe it's different in your case, Learsfool. Maybe you have put together an extremely high end rig and have conducted listening tests on different cables or better yet suites of cables? If not, then what is your basis, aside from distrust, for your conclusion?
Bottom line: You'll get results using any wires. But without system matching with proper cables you'll not likely hear what an extremely good rig can do. If OK is good enough, then fine. It's not for me.
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Learsfool, It seems you are essentially saying that cables are unimportant past a certain price point. You lay out your logic for remaining only with economical cables from a variety of manufacturers. Though I disagree, I respect your thinking. I am inclined to agree with you more in reference to economical rigs, but not agree as the quality of the system rises. At the level of $50-75K systems and above I almost completely disagree.
A question and an Observation:
1. What are you using to clean the connections?
2. If you unplug the cables for a while, some suggest that it "resets" the cable and dielectric charges are lost, thus inhibiting the performance temporarily. It matters not to me, but I was not sure if you knew of this theory in regards to cable performance. I am sincerely curious; do you unplug the cables to let them "breathe"? Do you feel they improve with a "rest"? I'm not being sarcastic, but I've not discussed this with anyone prior. Please describe this facet of using cables.
What fascinates me is that your "let the cables rest" idea is dielectrically opposed (WOA! Fun pun!!) to the "keep it plugged in at all costs" crowd. I want to find out more about your perspective on it.
To me, the "dielectric theory" has not passed my Law of Efficacy. i.e. It has not been significant enough, even on "steeper end" rigs, to be important. :) |
Ncwine1, which speaker are you referring to? |
Learsfool, we're not so far apart; there's many things we see similarly. Most different is the amount we would each contribute to the cables in a system and their "importance" overall. Everyone has to decide that for himself.
At first it sounded like you were indicating leaving the cables unplugged for a short period of time, hence my choice of the term "breathing". It seems you're rephrasing the action of unplugging and plugging them in again. If there is indeed an audible effect I would never experience the degradation of sound from leaving cables connected too long, as I break down and rebuild systems on a regular basis. |
Stringreen, As variety exists in cables so also (I think we all would agree) people's perceptions of what constitutes "good" sound. Between the two, I'm sure there's any number of cables which would work to sound good to a proportion of the audiophile population. The key is that you did your homework, and you found what is for you a great sound! From your response it seems you feel the effort was worth it.
Your comment about your wife's reaction, all judgments of quality of cables aside, is a fine illustration of how important/effective cable changes can be. You changed one IC (as I read it) and a second party noticed the change easily. I hear such dramatic changes as you did on a regular basis; you know exactly what I'm talking about. You have excellent gear, so this does not surprise me at all. :) |
Stringreen, it's wonderful to be immersed in music the way your life is! |
