A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Aside from the fact that the name ONEDOF is rather funny in german, the claim that it is "a first in the history of the audio turntable .... eliminates the source of acoustic distortions associated with microscopic movements of all existing cylindrical shafts".
Nice try.
So we will hail once again a new hero - because it is part of the game.
I for one can see a hell of a lot more ideas in the Continuum (R.I.P.).
But as NASA is downsizing on manpower now a fast pace, a lot of now unemployed engineers will seek new ventures.
Audio may well benefit from a legion of former aerospace engineers now bringing their ideas to the more simple field of audio.

Dear Halcro the Onedof makes that the DD Wave Kinectics see it as a " toy ".

Thuchan, I think that at least ( no matter price. ) the designer solve some " problems " that no other TT I know addressed, congratulations for that because this is a clear advance on TT design.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

The brilliant force behind the marketing of the Onedof summed it up for me like a super nova with Oneduff's Youtube production, click on (resonances do not occur) in the suspension and damping section of this web site.

Lew,
If you go to the onedof site that Banquo sent and then 'click' on 'Designer'.....you will see the price.

Just look around that website. It has all the answers. Yes, $150k.

"A first in the history of the audio turntables self-centering One Degree of Freedom or Onedof™ bearing eliminates the source of acoustic distortions associated with microscopic movements of all existing cylindrical shafts. With its unique precision Onedof™ bearing is holding massive spinning platter steadily. The bearing only permits the platter steady rotation about the vertical axis, passing through the center of the planet Earth. It is the only degree of freedom that the bearing leaves to the platter."

Just look around that website. It has all the answers. Yes, $150k.

"A first in the history of the audio turntables self-centering One Degree of Freedom or Onedof™ bearing eliminates the source of acoustic distortions associated with microscopic movements of all existing cylindrical shafts. With its unique precision Onedof™ bearing is holding massive spinning platter steadily. The bearing only permits the platter steady rotation about the vertical axis, passing through the center of the planet Earth. It is the only degree of freedom that the bearing leaves to the platter."

I see it now. Thx. That is one heckuva pod. Still would like to know the name of this table and who makes it, not that I am in the market. Does it really retail for $150K, as H implied?

Lewm: scroll down this page, http://www.onedof.com/pictures and you'll see what they call the 'tonearm tower'.

Dear Nandric,
oh yes, got your point very early. I mean Marlene seemed to live in a sealed world - not you! Marlene was able to do much more than me - maybe she also had more beautiful legs...
Your assumption about the listening room is quite right, but you know the plan and the implementation had a price. My wife was asking for a Japanese Garden and a big veranda on top of it. It also has an advantage, the room is fully noise sealed - which means I cannot hear her anymore when she is dancing on the veranda :-). but be assured she knows how to reach me...

You see it is not as simple as it looks and one usually does not need a room like mine. It is rather based on an ambition than money. Shure you can do it too but maybe you went not such crazy as me. Stay normal please!

best & fun only

best & fun only

Dear Halcro,
isn't it funny that someone who builds a nice looking TT (at least from a design point of view) thinks his potential customers are mad and fully standing outside of the real world. Who will pay the price they ask for? No one! I have seen and listened to the unit at the RMAF 2010. It is nothing spectacular about it unless that it's builder "flew to the moon with NASA" (not really...), was in touch with all unsolved technical issues the world is desperately questioning, and so on... if you read all the marketing lines...
okay it should have a place at the MOMA - yes! besides the first Transrotor etc.

best & fun only

Henry, What tt is that? It's impossible to be certain that the arm pod is indeed independent of the tt, from that angle of view.

Dear Thucham, You and Marlene Ditrich have of course different experience. My point however was that you both are/were able to spend a huge amount of money for your respective hobbys. The most people are not able to do this.
Then my assumption that a 'decent' dedicated listenening
room may even cost more than Marlene's $100.000 you yourself confirmed. I have no idea what you mean with 'living in a sealed world' as well what you mean with
'parable'. First of all I deed not invent those stories.So no 'parables' but facts.
Second I spent some considerable time in three different cuntries, got my Law degree in Holland and was university teacher for 35 years in Holland. So I have no reason at all
to think that I live in a 'sealed world'. On the contrary I consider my self as a world citizen. Besides I can pay for a 'decent' dedicated listening room but other 'things' are more important to me.

Regards,

Here is an economical way to own a nice armpod.
Buy the complete turntable for $150,000 :^)
CHEAP

Dear Nandric,
hopefully Marlene and me have different experiences... Nevertheless if you start "living in a sealed world" you may end up like your parable shows. 100.000 is not enough...

best & fun only

Dear Ct0517,
there is no argument against your position. Electricity installation is the start of a good system, even if you change some simple issues in a modest system. You discovered a flexible solution. I my case as I was able to influence nearly everything when building the room. My electrican installed three wide cross sectional lead cables in-wall mounted in the 50 cm thick ceiling going directly to the junction box.
I use a specially build passive connector box with many inputs, no filters.

best & fun only

Dear Thuchan, Explaining a joke is the same as admit that there is no joke. Glad to see that you 'got it' but I deed not expect otherwise. For the 'possible others' I will refer to your country lady Marlene Ditrich. She was wondering why so many American women are dressed so tasteless. 'At present' she thought (we are talking 1960) 'one
can get very decent clothes for only $100.000.'
I thought that at present to build a 'decent' dedidicated listening room may cost much more. But I am more optimistic than Sam and may have a chance to become member
of the Rockefeller family.

Regards,

Hi Henry

The Exclusive P3 is superb. It certainly has never had any feedback problems, so I am not sure where that comment came from.

The P3 has very sophisticated triple isolation (oil-damping + spring + rubber) which is isolated from the plinth. Isolation is down to 5hz. The motor structure and tonearm are on the same plane.

So, why would I want to remove the "decoration" plinth? It looks classy, sophisticated and timeless , yet like most plinths does not effect the sound quality or isolation abilities.

The Japanese engineers spent a lot of R&D on the P3 and it shows. I am sorry if you think anyone in their right mind would try to disassemble it. A tonearm rewire would be beneficial thou.

It was the most successful high-end & high-priced turntable in Japan for good reason.

Dear Nandric,

we may help Sam... but then I have to enter Fleib's new church I guess .?

best & fun only

Hi Nick –

Besides the the interconnects there is also the issue that my dedicated power line runs to an outlet located on the wall between the speakers.

IMO - I rate the quality of electricity as important as the room. I did not want to deal with extra cords and I know I have a problem with moving gear around a lot. I did not want to be at the mercy of the wall outlets. So I had the electrican install a shielded flexible dedicated line with 4 outlets on the end. This flexible line will reach back into the deepest section of the room if needed. My amps get plugged into it.

This flexible line has provided me the freedom to place gear anywhere and experiment.

For my neighborhood my meter has shown anywhere from 115 at the worst in summer to 122 depending on the time of year. I can remember years ago when turning on the amps and the lights would dim momentarily.

Cheers Chris

I agree with Nick. The turntable may be the center of the system with which everything in the front end has a specific relationship, but the ROOM is the universe and the most important element in achieving good sound.

Dear Thuchan, Some Dutch Jew was reading the paper and suddently started to cry. His best mate Mos asked what the reason was. Sam : "Don't you see the Rockefeller is passed awy.''
Mos : 'I am really sorry but I had no idea that Rockefeller is family of yours.'
Sam: 'that is exactly the problem.'

Regards,

This thread moves fast, so pardon me for stepping back a few days.

Jcarr: Thanks for the response to my post regarding the placement of my rack. I recently changed my rack from an Ikea shelve that was low and wide to a proper rack that is tall and narrow. The change in dynamics and bass response was dramatic. The new rack as far back as it can go but less than 500mm (20") back from front face of the speakers.

Besides the the interconnects there is also the issue that my dedicated power line runs to an outlet located on the wall between the speakers. Moving the rack would require pulling the wires again or a long extension cord.

All this is to say, that my experience with the change of rack leads me to agree with Tuchan's statement that the most limiting factor to good sound is the room. Understanding and taming your room and its contents will likely have bigger impact than any gear upgrade. That is not say that good gear is not required, it is necessary but not sufficient.

Dear all,
this is a thread full of helpful ideas how to improve the installation of TTs and the whole system. I needed over ten years to find out that the most limiting factor for good sound is the listening room itself. Usually you cannot change the room's structure and you need to compromise on many topics. This was exactly my situation in 2006.

Then I decided to build my own room. It took me two years studying and doing preparations for the final design, building structure and all the issues for the potential technical and acoustical effects. At this place I do not repeat what I am writing on my page but let me express that besides of the best construction material the right size of the room, having enough space behind and above the speakers and also between the speakers and the listening position is most important.

Either you do it in a monitor setting very close to the speakers as Jonathan suggests or you do it like I did keeping reflections ( also the first reflections ) under control by putting special frequency related treatment material in the additional extra-ceiling and also breaking the waves by the
surrounding wall installations avoiding glass and flat structures at the same moment.

It may sound funny but it is a big challenge to create a room which breathes and still has some atmosphere, so you like to stay there and do not feel entering a bunker or a dead room. In the end we want to relax and enjoy the sound - not the distortions. I have to admit that some theories work pretty well when being implemented but there are lots of thoughts also in this thread applying on "small rooms" which definitely do
not work in my listening room. Not a big issue for me anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to highlight my special situation ( maybe a little too :^) . What could be more important is that if you have a nice system and you do think about an apropriate room you may put some efforts in this rather than rebuilding the system all the time, or shielding everyhing around you. We need to live with airborne and structural waves but you can do a lot of improvements.

best & fun only

Hello Jcarr, I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but please explain a statement:

**FWIW, I also agree fully with Daniel and Travis regarding outboard arm pods. When you play a record, what you are actually doing is measuring it against the platter and spindle. Mounting the tonearm on a separate pod allows relative movement to occur between the tonearm pivot and the platter / spindle, and this will interfere with the accuracy of measurements.**

The set-ups I've seen with separate arm pods look like massive affairs where both the spindle housing and pods are planted so there can be no relative movement between them. Of course these are non-suspended tables. So, what are you talking about? Why is it preferable to use a plinth to maintain spindle/arm distance, rather than the base? I would think that using the plinth has greater potential to muddy up the sound.
Regards,

Dear Raul, I have read not one word that persuades me that I am missing something important by denuding a turntable or using an armpod. Not one person has my equipment or anything like it, or my turnables tonearms cartridges or has done a real "experiment" that proves anything at all. Mostly I read that the guys that have tried these constructs have found it to be pleasant and to make them happy, sometimes after much fiddling and some expense. My turntables/tonearms are also pleasant and make me happy. Please leave me be on this subject. This is what I was saying above; there is room in the universe for both approaches, so I at least wish to move on. You and a few others cannot be happy it seems unless the rest of us acknowledge that the plinthless/armpodist way of doing things is genius. It's not; it's just another way of doing things that inevitably comes with its own set of compromises. (Of course, this is my fault for posting here again. Sorry about that.) I guess I'd rather sling solder than machine metals.

Hi Shane,

I think Jasper being polite as he always is, is telling you to get a new wall shelf :-) One that does not sag.

Unfortunately, physics and gravity are phenomena we just have to live with :^)
I had toyed with the idea of a Micro Seiki SX5000 or 8000........but could imagine the sounds of steel screws popping from their masonry wall plugs :^(
Fortunately.....sagging does not have an audible effect. And the coins have been replaced by hard resin footers.
How is your P3 sounding? You know that the veneered plinth is just 'decoration'? It can easily be removed. I've also wondered how it would sound with the removal of those 'feedback-prone' springs?
I suspect it would rival the best :^)
Cheers
Henry

Dear Halcro: +++++ " Finally, I can't help but feel that all this talk of 'distortions'.....by you Raul and also by Jonathan.....without a single example .... " ++++++

Henry, you can read my answers on that subject in several threads ( in the MM/MI one you and me disagree and discussed on this distortion subject about the Signet's ( the average ones. ) and FR cartridges/tonearm. ), please don't push me to go in deep again ( I always made my job with questions/answers so please make yours: investigating. )in your thread in reference with your system and what you are hearing and why. Henry I knew extremely well your system or at least better that what you think I know. I know ( first hand. )very well your amps, phonolinepreamp, speaker caps, subwoofers, your cartridges, TTs and tonearms, Scanspeak drivers, cables and even your tape-deck.

IMHO and due to my experiences with those audio items I can say that I have a good idea of what you are hearing, why and what kind of distortions you like.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Lewm: IMHO: wrong answer: ++++ " and I am always thinking of ways to improve my pre-amp. " +++++

so you want to improve your pre-amp but you are reluctant to improve your TT/tonearm.

With all respect that makes no sense: especially that every single non-plint and stand alone tonearm pod advocate here and in other threads already shared their experiences and in no single one of those experiences exist any single word against but only full quality performance level improvements !!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Henry, Sometimes a thing is "good enough". My LP hardware is in that category. My spare time is limited, and I would rather be listening to some good jazz than fiddling with an armpod. As it is, my amplifier project seems endless, and I am always thinking of ways to improve my pre-amp. Making those slate plinths took a lot out of me, I guess. In short, I will not be making any armpods or modifying any turntables to accept an armpod in the foreseeable future.

Hi Henry

I think Jasper being polite as he always is, is telling you to get a new wall shelf :-) One that does not sag.

You can spend those pennies then :-)

cheers

Shane

Dear Halcro, I thought you started this thread and are 'involved in' as such. Ie the thread seems to be about the question 'who is right': the plinth church or the arm
pod church. There are always 'atheist' among us and you are
probable one of them. I questioned the premise only with
an hypothetical 'if' from the 'first rule' of logic: the deduced statements can only be true if the premise is also true. Well I am glad to see that J. Carr stated clearly that the premise is at least 'wrong'. BTW my arguments are not about 'words...words' but about connections between sentences or statements.

With Slavic greeting,

Hi Nandric,

I do not believe (as I might have mentioned once or twice) that this is the correct place to debate these matters - at least not at the expense of the accepted topics. Yet, I am curious about your (quasi-Wolffian) view that:

"logicaly, if the premise is not true than all the deductions from the premise can't be true also. (09-16-11)"

I find this fascinating because of its apparent pre-Kantian recant of the law of contradiction (which Kojeve made so much of in his assessments in "Kant" and, of course, engaging the linguistic nuances of 'contra-diction' in French)- albeit, an inverted postulation. Of course, a lot here will depend on what sense you have of the terms ‘logic’, ‘true’, ‘from’ and ‘can’t’.

With me admittedly not having the understanding of a Fregean here, I would appreciate it if you could email me off line to discuss without any further and undue intrusion on this thread. This is obviously not intended as a confrontation but a genuine hope that you can help clarify my innocence in understanding this.

As always...

Hi Fripp1,

Ah, Ferdinand de Saussure, Barthes, Derrida (and by extension, Bataille, Lacan and Levinas). It is more complex than some would wish. I hope y/our despondency proves wrong.

As always...

Dear Nandric,
Thank you 'brother' :-)
However I'm a little perturbed about playing a game about "...who is right.."?
I believe that most of us here, have many and varied experiences which combine to create a 'direction' and a 'solution' to their audio aspirations.
The fact that I choose a belt-drive turntable (and subsequently a DD one) does not, for an instant, presume to me that those who choose an idler are 'wrong'.
I don't believe (in my theory) that 'sprung' turntables are the right way to correctly retrieve information from a vinyl record yet I acknowledge that in some circumstances, such devices overcome their theoretical limitations and provide immense enjoyment for their adherents.
In other words, I prefer an 'inclusive' theory rather than an 'exclusive' theory regarding system choices.

Dear Lewm,
If you read some of my posts, you will see that far from wishing you to cry 'uncle'.....I sincerely hope that you or others may try this theory and cry....'nay'.
But in doing so.......tell us specifically why and how it is failing.
As Raul so often begs.....give us examples of this 'movement' or 'distortion' so that we, who have invested in this methodology, may avoid those pitfalls.
So far, no one who has actually tried the isolated armpods, has highlighted a real, and repeatable deficiency?.....one we can all test or improve upon?

Dear Raul,
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I certainly don't claim my system is 'Perfect'.....far from it. I have not heard one that is.
But like you, I am astounded that what I hear through the Audeze LCD2 is as near to 'perfectly corresponding' tonally and in detail to my speakers in my poorly laid-out listening environment.
There is not a single 'revelation' I hear through the headphones that I cannot also hear through the speakers.
No tremulous triangle shimmering behind the orchestra....no slurred or muffled words that suddenly through the headset become descipherable.
There is NOTHING that the headphones produce that I can't hear as well......or better......through my speakers.

Finally, I can't help but feel that all this talk of 'distortions'.....by you Raul and also by Jonathan.....without a single example which any of us can test.....is, as Nandric and Dgob would tell you (I hope).....a smokescreen that smacks of superiority?
"There are distortions (trust me)....and if you can't hear them, your ears or systems are inadequate, but I can hear them and I can tell you what they are and where they are!"
As you often say to others Raul (and I'm with you on this :-)........tell me, show me, describe to me, what these distortions are and provide examples on specific tracks on specific records so that we....the cloth-eared ones....may hear and understand what you are describing.
Otherwise, as others have already said, these are just words....words.....words.

Dear Halcro, I gotta love ya, but you wrote, "through my speakers/room/equipment interface I hear exactly the same spectrum of sound quality as through the headphones with an added air, transparency, depth, bass impact, instrument positioning and emotional content."

I submit that this is impossible. Both can be superb, but the two systems can never sound exactly alike.

I have been away for a while and I intend to stay quiet in future, but after reading the last few weeks of posts, it seems to me that the Copernicans not only want their view to be "acceptable' but also for the non-Copernicans to say "uncle". I have written many times that I am quite certain your respective systems can sound excellent, but please don't think that makes you "right" and the rest of us "wrong". In turn, I will continue to say that I don't think any of you are wrong, either. (Ct, if your tonearm did not move, it did not move. OK?)

If I were going to implement an outboard arm pod there would be certain ways that I would do it. As an illustration, I like the DaVinci approach, sans the gaudiness of that turntable. Note that the Da Vinci armpod, motor pod, and platter pod are all made exactly the same way, of the same materials, and use identical footers. Plus Da Vinci recommends that they all should sit on a specific surface atop a specific stand (available for a mere $40,000 extra).

Dear JC, You are being too generous to say that Henry or any of the rest of us have conducted an "experiment" in the true meaning of the word.

Dear Halcro: If it is true that each one home audio system listening experience is " particular/unique " to no one but the owner IMHO it is true too that there are and exist some not writed " rules " that not only serve to criticize some body else but that could help us to improve our " veneu ".

I would like to talk ( in no order. ) on what JC/Dover/Chris and you posted on your overall system quality performance subject ( please with out other attitude than the ones involved here , including me, could understand the whole subject in better way: or not ? ):

I agree that everyone of us must " build " our audio system inside the environment we have and obviously inside the limitations that home environment impose us. Like you and several other persons we must live with our audio system in the parlor instead a dedicated room as JC. Nothing wrong with that, it is part of the audio trade-offs we are accustom to live with.

Yes, for some persons maybe to have the audio equipment betqeen the speakers is not the best place but some times there is no alternative.
In my case I experienced in the past ( and lived with for some time. ) with my equpment 8-10 m. from the speakers but the amplifier till I decided to try the today set up " in between " and good that I took this road because I had and have a substantial improvement in quality performance.

It does not matters what theory say about running the signal from line stage to amp fro 10m-20m when your line stage has very low output impedance/drive that permits not signal degradation: for me this is a myth ( at least is my experiences. ). For one moment any one of you think in what several audio designers choosed as one of their targets: " the shorten signal path " " minimum signal pass travel " ( on preamps or amps. ), why is that?: because as longer the signal pass through as signal is more " expose " to degradations of every and different kind. So a good trade-off for me was shortened the signal path to the speakers.

As JC pointed out: each home audio system has its own trade-offs. Btw, my audio equipment is at lower level than the tweeter/mid-range drivers and a little behind speakers: these helps but does not means I have no " troubles " but I prefer this way that 10 m. away. Even if I went/had a dedicated room my " impulse " will be to stay with the shorten signal path that in may ways is between speakers, of course that in a dedicated room with that set up maybe I can avoid some of the troubles I have today.

JC said that equipment betqeen speakers goes against not only performance but very specific on soundstage: in my system that was not my experience, even I think ( maybe I'm wrong. ) that the equipment in between works as diffusors that helps in some way.

Dover posted about that big glass table between the speakers and seat position, he is right but ( exist a but ) depends in specific where the tweeters ( and in second place: midranges drivers. ) first reflections comes: I use to have a big round glass ( bigger than yours Halcro. ) in that position till I detected the problem and fixed changing to another small one in different position where those speakers first reflection are " free " fron the table: huge improvement I have to say.

Now, even that I and other posted that we don't experienced any single/tiny change of position in our stand alone tonearm pod JC insist about one and again:

++++ " If you have a tonearm mount that allows relative movement between the LP and tonearm pivot, you are also creating distortions. " +++++

why he did that is out of my mind. Chris posted again that even at 100 db SPL he experienced " nothing ".

on other subject he posted:

+++++ " My experience is that MM vs. LOMC is largely a phono stage and tonearm issue. LOMCs need a good phono stage, they need as few electrical contacts between themselves and the phono stage as possible, and the low-compliance types need a suitable tonearm that can sink a lot of mechanical energy without becoming perturbed. " +++++

well the MM has its own needs that we have to fulfil to aprreciate its great quality performance. Same as any LOMC cartridge asks but here IMHO exist a main big difference between MM/MI and LOMC cartridges and that difference is vital and critical it does not matters that you can fulfil the LOMC needs: 40 dbs of additional amplification!!!! for the LOMC cartridges. This means several compromises ( between others. ) as more cartridge signal stages where it must pass , a cartridge signal with so low output ( against MM/MI ) that is very sensitive to be contaminated in several ways and all these means : added distortions no matters which tonearm or phono stage we are using it.

++++ " It would be more accurate to say that I hear other distortions from MMs or MIs that annoy me even more. " ++++

which ones? with which cartridges, tonearms and phono stage?

+++++ " If you use a DD motor and you don't have much moment-inertia in the plinth, you will be creating a form of noise which is somewhat similar to the background noise of an LP " +++++

this is interesting and I like many of you want to learn so JC please tell us how is this? how can we aware of it? and if it is something like the background LP's noise then how can we detect it when on playback to not be mix up with the LP noise it self?

Halcro posted:

+++++ " When I listen through the Audeze LCD2 headphones through the Schiit Lyr headphone amp I hear no reduction in distortions compared to my speaker/room/equipment interface. " +++++

so, IMHO you have a PERFECT speaker/room/equipment. I need to learn here too because I know very well all your Halcro electronics, subwoofers, cartridges, some tonearms and TTs you own and IMHO are not PERFECT: what did you to been " there "? to been and live in that perfection? and I'm talking of perfection due that those headphones are really good with very good distortions.

+++++ " I don't doubt the experiences of others.......I expect the same respect for mine. " ++++

well, I respect you but your statements makes no clear/precise sense.

JC:

+++++ " There are reasons why I said that some of the posts suggested that the poster wasn't hearing distortions that were almost certainly present " +++++

I agree for several reasons ( latter. )

Halcro:

+++++ " It is thus a little puzzling to think that you actually believe we are perhaps listening to distortions without somehow knowing it? " ++++

and followed:

++++ " I believe that I can detect 'distortions' as well as you or anyone else. " ++++++

main reason I agree with JC is that not only Halcro, JC, me or any one else can detect " distortions " : if and only if we are aware how that or those " distortions " performs/sounds.
I can't detect what I don't know how it sounds and due to this fact those hidden ( for me. ) distortions are took as part of the performance and not as distortions.

Gentlemans, I can detect some audio systems distortions that you can't and the only reason is that you don't know those several times subtle distortions. In the same way I can't detect other distortions because I'm unaware of them when you are.

In the other side even if we are aware of it there exist different audio system resolution levels that makes things more complicated. As JC said: because you can't detect it does not means does not exist because are there.

In the other side too there are distortions that we love it as there are distortions we hate it or are more sensible to. At the end on this distortion whole subject could help is we ask: which or what is more accurate/neutral against music reference/standards?, with out a " reference " accuracy or neutrality or distortions does not exist.

So, in this subject: which are our each one references?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Halcro:

I have a pair of HD800s, and a pair of K1000s. And a hand-selected pair of Stax Lambda Signature Pros. However, I don't particularly enjoy the physical sensation of listening to headphones in general. I agree with you that headphones remove room and speaker artifacts, however they introduce other artifacts and sensations of their own.

>There are no theoretical arguments which can turn 'black' into 'white'.

At least my arguments haven't been merely theoretical. I have had a variety of experiences, and performed a variety of experiments with armpods, over a timespan of perhaps 30 years. But I will concur that when it comes to subjective preferences, there is no "right" nor "wrong". You are free to choose anything that you want to.

>I don't doubt the experiences of others.......I expect the same respect for mine. :^)

I may wonder aloud at how you conducted your experiments, or your controls, or your conclusions, but in no way does that mean that I don't give you a lot of credit for having performed hands-on experimentation. For that you have my full respect.

Ct0517: there is an aggressive, threatening undertone to your post that certainly doesn't encourage constructive replies. All that I can say is that, do feel free to listen to anything that you think sounds best. You don't need anyone's approval nor permission to listen to what you like best.

FWIW, I don't manufacture turntables. Nor do I distribute them (although in previous years I have been involved in distribution and setup for turntable manufacturers that included both integrated armboard and separate arm-pod models in their lineup).

I normally try and have tried in this thread to not hide the fact that I am an audio manufacturer - am I supposed to add "Manufacturer disclaimer" to each and every one of my posts?

My impression so far has been that most manufacturers are quite enthusiastic about audio on a personal level - we collect gear from other manufacturers and historical periods, experiment a lot with setup, have lots of albums, go to concerts frequently, and generally enjoy listening to music. And in my own case, when I hear a piece of gear or a type of design that I think is worthy (including sounding good), if presented the chance to give it credit in public, I will happily do so.

Over and out, jonathan

The only thing I am envious of in this hobby is the “room” and specifically in this priority order.

1) Dedicated room

2) Size of Room.

No matter what your room size – if you are an audiophile and you have a room to do with the gear and room what you desire, you will find appropriate gear and place them optimally in your room for you. I have seen and heard many “great size” rooms but the gear is placed to deal with the fact that it is a “shared” room. Even if your room is square and small, if you were free to place gear and speakers in it as you like – you will find your nirvana. I am not a fan of headphones personally. Have always enjoyed listening to groups, bands, performances. I want my ears to hear the effects of the surroundings. I am a music lover first, not someone involved with testing of a product that needs a certain type of “testing” environment. The differences between the two are black and white.

My room is not the best size room but it is a dedicated sound room (12 ft x 24 ft) built 12 years ago. Partial Basement Section, insulated for sound (walls and ceilings). Two separate power feeds into the room. I place gear wherever I want and trust me I have over 12 years. In fact I have placed my gear everywhere in that room just to hear the effects. This hobby to me is ONLY about what I hear.

It is clean for a picture if I am lucky once a year. I am frankly too embarrassed with the wires and “accessories” on the floor, the mess to post an overall pic.

My speakers are in nearfield. 9 ft from the front wall. 6 feet between centre of woofers. I sit close enough to touch them if I reach over – about 6 feet (1.5 – 1.8 metres). Except for the gear near the side wall there is 15 feet of open space behind my listening chair. Controls on my vintage Audio Research Sp11 MK II Pre Amp are never changed. It is run in Direct Bypass mode. No filters in use. Circuitry for Preamp controls are bypassed.

This setup I have found allows for good comparisons. I can hear subtle nuances very well – this setup IMO is better for this than a setup that allows for reflections to reach you. I have no problems posting impressions of what I actually hear. My ears don’t lie to me. I will not post based on theory only.

Also after over 2 months of listening, including a 115 + db level test with direct sound pressure and the resulting structure feedback, I went through the motions of trying to line up an ET 2.5 on the brass arm pod and the ET 2.0 on a 100 lb plinth as if being done for the first time. No alignment was required on either of them.

So as this being the Copernican thread - I will ask “again” for those that believe there is relative movement happening between the arm and spindle. Educate me. Teach me.

JCarr, Dover, Lew, Tbone, others ? I ask you to stop talking theory and prove this to me. Don’t use the word distortion. This is a kindergarten word for audiophiles. You can do better.

Prove to me what you are hearing or have heard with an armpod – provide me with the lp, track and the part in the song that demonstrates this theory. Otherwise its words out of your mouth and I listen with my ears.

BTW Dover did Halcro not pay your bar bill? Holy Cripes

I am currently listening to different drive systems. I am able to hear clear differences between all three of them. I will be posting the lp, track and part of the song that demonstrates this on my system page.
Also at a minimum if possible for those with an opinion - at least show us the speakers, phonostage, cables you are using so we can compare and improve our setup. Lay it out there.

It is more convincing and will keep this thread from going in circles. I agree with Dover in that regard.

I also have more respect if Manufacturers, dealers, distributors show a disclaimer. I will look to them first when buying as well.

Dear Halcro, There is no such a thing as identity between two brains. I am astonished about those people who are searching for their identity. Every single one has already
his own. But the game in which you are involved is about
'who is right'? The premise of this game is however questionable. But than , logicaly, if the premise is not true than all the deductions from the premise can't be true also.
A Serbian suporter of an Slavic brother.

Dgob, re: your comment from 9/14. Excellent point. This a never-ending problem in human communication. I have a BA in English, attained after the large scale introduction of postmodern theory in the late 60s and into the 70s. While meaning is ultimately fluid (Roland Barthes, Jacques Derrida) beyond the realm of the natural sciences (which themselves are subject to the need for definition of terms), it is still incumbent upon humanity to try and find common ground--acceptance of shared meaning--because our survival depends on it. The process of critical thinking, linked as it is to language and argumentation, is the only possible method we can use. Everything else falls into the category of faith, religion, ideology, etc. and we see the destructive ramifications of that on a daily basis. A far greater degree of universal consciousness (involving language, meaning, critical thinking) is needed, and I suspect it won't evolve into the human species in time. Not a pleasant thought but...

You can quantify the difference by making a high-bit recording of your turntable without the speakers playing, and with speakers playing at your customary listening levels, and compare the two files. If you put the two files through a program such as DiffMaker by LIberty Instruments, it is possible to extract the difference component and listen to it as a distinct "distortion" track.

Not sure why you would want to do this?
Listening through a fine set of headphones with a great amp will remove all the room effects, the equipment positioning effects, the 'supposed' air-borne feedback effects as well as all conjectural problems regarding speakers.
When I listen through the Audeze LCD2 headphones through the Schiit Lyr headphone amp I hear no reduction in distortions compared to my speaker/room/equipment interface.Rather, through my speakers/room/equipment interface I hear exactly the same spectrum of sound quality as through the headphones with an added air, transparency, depth, bass impact, instrument positioning and emotional content.
There are no theoretical arguments which can turn 'black' into 'white'.
I don't doubt the experiences of others.......I expect the same respect for mine. :^)

Hi Nick:

20 feet (from preamp to poweramp?) should be OK for preamps that have good output drive capability and low output impedance. With preamps of higher output impedance, you may encounter some high-frequency roll-off. This effect can be minimized by making sure that you use as low-capacitance interconnects as you can find. I think that Blue Jean Cables offers some interconnects which prioritize low capacitance.

IME, the acoustic problem from having big, acoustically reflective objects between the speakers is a bigger problem than needing to use long interconnects. Having big objects between the speakers really does mess up the soundstage and imaging big-time, with lesser (but still significant) damage inflicted on instrumental timbres and dynamics. If you absolutely must have your equipment rack between the speakers, I would try to get the rack and equipment as far behind the speaker baffles as possible, and get the equipment or rack's highest edge lower than the speakers' tweeters, preferably the midrange also.

If you can't disassemble your rack and reassemble it to get it lower, perhaps you could keep a thick blanket handy to throw over the rack and gear when the speakers are playing. This won't be as effective as opening up the space between the speakers, but it will give better results than doing nothing.

One more simple setup technique that I habitually use is to experiment with the rake angle of the speakers front baffle. Changing the rake angle of the front baffle will modify the time-alignment between midrange and treble (unless you use full-ranges), and can be used to alter the perceived height of the soundstage center, and the tonal balance. I find that most people seem to find the sound most comfortable if I adjust the speaker rake angle to bring the vertical center of the soundstage to approximately ear level.

Note that if the angle of the left and right speakers is different, you will introduce a height skew to the left and right sides of the soundstage. Making sure that the left and right speakers have identical vertical rake will give better imaging focus and soundstage depth.

hth, jonathan carr

Hi Nick sr, This is the difference between the 'actual world' and the 'possible world'. I used to have on my wall not a TT rack but many Playboy beauties while I married the
girl next door.

Regards,

Hi Nick_sr,

I face a similar dilemma and tried both for some time. I went for the extra length on preamp to amp interconnects (power amp between speakers - feeling that the speaker cable length is more telling). Analysis Plus [Silver Oval, as originally recommended to me by Raul] pride themselves on control/accuracy over long lengths. Their conducted square wave tests appear to support that view and - as I said - my hearing seems to agree. Although not ideal, this might therefore be worth giving a listen.

As always...

I view placing my rack between my speakers a lesser evil. I have very small room (16x10x8ft or 5x3x2m LxWxH). I simply do not have anywhere else where it can be placed other than in a corner, which is worse.

There is one place where the rack could be placed but I would then require long interconnects (20ft RCA's). As result I would trade off mechanical problems for electrical ones.

This sport is all about trade-offs, at all levels from the tone-arm to the room.

Hi Halcro,

Before Nandric jumps in with his view, I'd just like to say that I have not meant to detract from the main subject of this post with my last comment and am sorry if I have.

I am not familiar enough with Frege (the 'extent' or impact of the supposed limitations of his mathematic on his luiguistic rationalism; the 'extent' and differences between his concept of 'logic', etc) to criticise his approach and thinking. For me, such difference in thinking still stands as a key and inevitable aspect of philosophy. Nor am I, as has been suggested elsewhere, a Kantian or Hegelian.

For those interested, I would never advocate standing under the banner of any one thinker and I realise that things are rarely as simple or clear cut as might be wished: 'http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/frege/'.

Apologies for this final abstraction and I continue to follow (and, hopefully, contribute to) the developments on this thread with real interest.

As always...

Dear Halcro, I have something with the tonearms. Lucky me
in the time of Freud there were no such 'objects of disire'
so I will never know what's wrong with me. But I am a peculiar tonearm collector. I like to see, inspect and admire them for a while.Alas because of restricted means I need to sell some in order to buy some other. This the only
way for me to 'inspect' as many as possible.

Kind regards,

I agree Henry. The FR-5 IS better than the FR-6 and sounds quite decent. I haven't tried it in that particular headshell but I imagine it would sound better than I have heard it yet. And because it is not 'audiophile-approved' in the other thread, it can be gotten 'cheaply'... :^)

Oh Jonathan,
I forgot......I took your advice and found an FR-5 MM cartridge and about 6 months later with Nandric's help, I found a 5e stylus and.....after supergluing the top-piece of the cartridge to the bottom ( there was significant swivelling there:^()......it sounds wonderful fixed to a Yamamoto HS-1AS headshell riding on an SAEC-308N tonearm parked beside the TT-81.
I believe it IS better than the FR-6SE as you said.
Thanks for the tip:^)
Cheers
Henry

Hi Halcro,

I suspect that the statement "I like..." would be subjective ("Je pense, donc je suis") but when one says "I like because..." one enters into dialogue and proofs (objective) are often sought in order to challenge or support that preference. The difficulty concerning our topic seems to be to agree or locate those 'objective' (generally meaning, demonstrable within the - disputed - laws of science) proofs to satisfy all.

As always...