Re: laser levels.
For anyone interested I have an inexpensive solution. I own a Lazerpro (CL2060) which is a 16" (38 CM) aluminum level with a built-in dot or line laser light. Place it on a nearby surface (check for horizontal with the built in bubble level) adjusted for the height of your motor unit and use the laser line option to project the exact elevation for your arm mount.
I purchased the Lazerpro to facilitate speaker toe-in. That was several years ago but I'm certain it was less than $20. |
Dear Lewm: Do you know where I can get that lasser vial?, thank you in advance.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dgob: Yes those AT616 are really good supporting the TT but IMHO not so " firm " for a tonearm, I use it too with my AS TT motors.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dgob, I alredy mentioned how glad I was with your post
and results. Not only because I own an very good arm pod but also because I somehow feel to have won at least one
argument from Lew. However while I am really happy with my
Kuzma Stabi Reference I also know about the existance of
Kuzma XL . Not sure about the plinth but well about the armpod (both huge qua weight and price). But I have never
seen any comment questioning this armpod. So Mr. Kuzma was
at least an half Copernican before Halcro.
Regards, |
I still believe the key to the improvement was and this is gut feel only 75% isolated armboard and 25% getting the sp10 out of its plinth. Isolating and mass loading the armboard I feel was key. I have the same gut feel. The isolated and heavy arm boards I believe, are a revelation. |
Lewm,
I do have a long carpenter's level that I use for making measurements of larger areas (of shelves, turntable etc). However, the small precision vial that I use can be used to ensure the level at a variety of (often small and intricate - arm tower etc) places/points/spaces.
Not withstanding the noted issues regarding using the larger spirit level here, I think the laser level sounds a really interesting idea and I think would now probably be fairly cost efficient as you suggest. I'll look into the practicalities and thanks for the suggestions. |
Chris,
Sorry but just a quick follow up. Did you try the arm tower on your fourth AT616 and, if so, what was the outcome?
Thanks |
Ct0517,
I'm not altogether certain. Moving the Technics onto the AT616s made an immediate difference to staging, pitch and tone. However, isolating and mass-loading the armboard definitely enhanced these gains and brought about the full potential that I've pointed to above.
AS you'll recall from my earleir comments, one of my key interests was to see if the isolation/decoupling of turntable from armboard and plinth would reap rewards. It now seems beyond doubt to me that such isolation offers a huge step forward. |
Dear Ct0517: I think that you could be right about that " isolated " subject. As you I can't be sure.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Very nice review Dgob – kinda makes use wish you had your sp10 back Banquo ?
I have been using the AT-616Â’s for a couple of weeks. I was able to make my ET 2.5 arm fit by raising it to its highest point and using higher spikes.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/view_userimages.php?user_id=5181&image_id=41263
The 616’s adjustability makes leveling of the sp10 platter very easy. For those familiar with the ET 2.5 ensuring the air bearing arm is level is even easier – laser guided or regular level not required.
I still believe the key to the improvement was and this is gut feel only 75% isolated armboard and 25% getting the sp10 out of its plinth. Isolating and mass loading the armboard I feel was key.
Dear Dgob – you listened to your setup with the armboard attached to the naked sp10 first – it improved the sound sure – but wasn’t the bigger jump in quality getting the armboard isolated and mass loaded ?
Any thoughts on this.
Cheers Chris |
Dear Dgob: I assume that in both tonearm quality performance is first rate as you posted, thank's.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dgob, You might try a laser-type device for assuring that the table and arm mount are plane parallel. I believe such things are now commercially available. I would not completely trust a small spirit level; a large long carpenter's level would be better. That's what I use to make sure that platters and plinths are perpendicular to the force of gravity and parallel to each other. |
Raul,
Only the Moerch DP6 and Audiocraft AC3300 LB. |
Dear Dgob: Which tonearms do you already try/test on the naked TT?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Halcro,
Sorry, I should have also said that I have also based my comments on the nude approach in the light of my experience with the various other TT's that I have owned, which I have referenced before. |
Halcro,
Thanks for the kind words. Regarding the plinths tried, I tried a birch, aluminium and acrylic composite plinth. I also tried various directly coupled arm boards. These included ones made of birch/aluminium, ash and MDF.
Of the armboards, the ash was the best performer (in view of the achievements and criteria that I have used for the nude approach). The bespoke plinth is of my and my artisan brother-in-law's design. It performed well but the experiment with the nude and stand-alone approach has meant that we're back to the drawing board and trying to see if we can incorporate some of the apparent lessons into a new design.
This is only an exercise to see what is really possible (plinth wise) for those who MUST have a more traditional arrangement. However, given financial and time constraints at present, it might be quite some time before any advances are made on this front. When they are and assuming that the results are worth noting, I'll definitely feed back.
In truth and thanks largely to your and Raul's initial suggestions, the nude and stand alone approach are (as I've sought to explain) all that I could wish to achieve. |
Raul,
Thanks. I'll look into a digital option. |
Dear Dgob,
Wonderful post and illuminating descriptions.
For newcomers to this thread and the sceptics out there, it would be good perhaps for you re-cap on what plinth you had used with the SP10Mk2 prior to 'nuding' it? |
Dear Dgob: I'm not expert on levels/vials but maybe a digital one could help and with high accuracy and easy to use for that purpose.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,
Thanks for the warning. I did spend an inordinate amount of time ensuring that both armtower/arm and tt were levelled exactly the same, within the limitations of the small spirit level that I use for this purpose. If I can find an even more accurate method/tool I will definitely try to make it even more exact if possible. If you (or anyone) have a suggestion of how to improve on this, it would be gratefully received.
Thanks again for your kind help throughout |
Dear Dgob: No doubt the naked TT and stand alone arm board is working, good.
Only as a " precaution ": check with a level/spirit that the tonearm be leveled exactly as the TT platter, I mean in the horizontal plane.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Banquo363,
Sorry, just to add on the 1982 preferance, you get much more playing time to enjoy on his later and much slower rendition and I think the fact that I simply adore the music makes this a plus (not to mention that the more time plus better quality really do appeal on the miserly 'value for money' front)! |
Banquo363,
Thanks very much. Yes, I've placed the power supply on the Symposium precision couplers and sat that on the Symposium svelte platform - which sits on the birch shelf. These viscoelastic platforms still work effectively under electronics (such as power supplies and amplifiers - also spectacular between stands and speakers).
On the Gould, I much prefer the 1981 rendition (1982 recording). His introspection and maturity just seem more appealing and engaging. I also think the recording quality is better and his habitual background vocals just seem to add to the 1982 recording in ways that his 1955 cannot.Maybe that's all just a reflection of my own aging perspectives finding accord with his. |
Bravo Dgob: the most articulate and detailed account of the 'nude' sound that I've seen.
Do you have your power supply on spikes as well? The pic makes it look a bit elevated.
Do you prefer the 1982 GV to the 1955? |
Dear Nandric,
Thank you. I think!
Just by way of clarification around my listening, there are notes on the recordings that I have suggested above. As I say, they are worth having in their own right:
Review of ProkofievÂ’s Romeo and Juliet complete ballet, Zuraitis:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201990/42/813451/PROKOFI+EV.+Romeo+and+Juliet%E2%80%94ballet,+Op.+64.+Bolshoi+Theatre+Orchestra++Algis+Zuraitis.+Classics+for+Pleasure+0CD+CDCFPD4452+(two+discs,+nas%3A+142+minutes%3A+ADD).+From+EMI+SLS1650933+(883)
Reviews of BachÂ’s Goldberg Variations, Gould:
http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/sept/gould/
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/32884/Glenn-Gould-Bach%3A-Goldberg-Variations/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-BWV-988/dp/B0002ISFRU
Reviews of BachÂ’s Sonatas and Partitas, Milstein:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pdp/profile/AUPFJ7DHP16HO/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp
http://www.epinions.com/review/pr-Bach_Sonatas_Partitas_Nathan_Milstein_Music/content_61056388740
Reviews of SurmanÂ’s Westering Home:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/westering-home-r148391
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/john_surman/westering_home/
These are all available with a little effort for anyone who does not own them. Maybe the Prokofiev is a little more difficult to obtain but well worth the perseverance I feel.
Anywhos, it would please me if any of this proves helpful.
Happy listening |
Dear Dgob, You made all the (rowing) people in the other galleon (with the arm pod) very happy. |
Hi All,
So I've suggested my being impressed by the changes that I have achieved in moving to a naked Technics SP10 Mk2 with a decoupled, stand-alone arm tower. Yet I started to wonder what precisely constituted this "better". Well, in a ham-fisted attempt to clarify my thinking here I thought I'd share some impressions of this experience.
As I noted, with the new analogue arrangement, the first and most obvious change is that the sound stage is far larger. This means that the spacing between musicians is not only wider but it is markedly deeper too. This is accompanied by the sensation of actual acoustic space between musicians and presents a perspective that is far closer to that provided in an actual live performance.
The next most obvious feature relates to the above one but is that you acquire more control over complex performance material. Large orchestra crescendos do not become confused and the instrumentation remains identifiable throughout. This goes hand in hand with the much increased sense of ease that performances attain.
The next most obvious change is the increased level of 'detail' that you get. For me, detail is the critical factor of quality in high fidelity replay. This is not only being able to hear additional instruments but also to be able to distinguish timbre and every audible feature that makes a live performance. To neglect the certrality of detail as the key criteria seems to me to depend on a violent limitation on what one means by 'detail'. For me, the term means 'more information' and that is surely (be it in increasing the bite of string instuments or; the rasp of brass or; the percussive impact of drums, strings or keyboards or; the quieter spaces that give good staging) at the heart of everything that the audiophile is seeking. Well, you get more detail when playing your music through this new analogue arrangement.
This fact leads to a need to 'equalise your hearing'. This seems critical to me because (I believe) we can become familiar with hifi norms that have little to do with actual live performances. One such norm is the spotlighting of a frequency range and or instrument at the cost of the full range of the actual performance. It's difficult to explain what I mean here other than to say that proportion is generally lost with this form of hifi spotlighting (there are of course other forms of equipment that can also achieve these negative results - including certain cables and forms of amplification).
In the new arrangement, the lead instrument/frequency is brought back into perspective with the full ensemble. This does not mean that there is a loss of detail in such a lead instrument or frequency range. What it seems to mean is that the supporting detail is brought out into what becomes a more detailed performance in which everything just seems right (key instrument or frequencies included). Listener fatigue also goes on holiday as this new detail makes its entrance. As I say, I found that it made me reassess the various cues that I had become accustomed to basing my assessments of components on. And that put live performances (or intimations of them in line with my own experiences of live performances at a variety of venues) back to the fore of my appreciations.
I name four recordings that underpin, and seem to fully testify to, my impressions. These recordings are:
1. Bach, Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould (1982) CBS
2. Bach, Donatas & Partitas, Nathan Milstein (1975) Deutsche Grammophon 2721 087
3.Prokofiev, Romeo and Juliet complet ballet, Algis Zuaitis, Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra, EMI CPD 41 4452 3 and
4.John Surman, Westering Home, (1972) Island Records, HELP 10.
I wont go into detail about the factors that come through on these phenomenal works: they are worth listening to regardless of the quality of ones equipment. Suffice it to say that all four of these recordings make my above impressions certainties for me. Yet all recordings take a similar route to improvement (obviously in proportion to the quality of their own performance and recording) with my nude turntable and detached stand alone arm tower.
I strongly recommend such experimentation for those who might seek to explore my experience and appreciation of what constitutes its being better. |
Looks like adjustable headshell offset angle. Nice to have but dangerous in the wrong hands. Strictly for the cognoscenti. |
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Dear Lewm: There are no pictures that I can show yet. When the unit be ready all of you will know and see it through Agon.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dgob, Where? I went to that page. Raul alludes to the tonearm in his text but there is no photo I can find. There is or was no photo on Raul's "system" site, either. Or are you saying that he just recently posted one there? (But I looked two days ago... nada.)
Dear Nandric, I am trying to be serious again so as not to offend the Copernicans. Clearly, King Philip would bring the arm pod along with him wherever he went water skiing. |
Dear Lew, Your jealousy reg. my arm pod is such that you even use such 'arguments' as gallions and slaves against the innocent thing. I expected, to be honest, some reference to your beloved Newton and his laws but I need
to deal only with the arguments you posted. And those are
to my mind self defeating. No slave had the means to own
both; the TT as well as the tonearm. So obviously the more
probale situation was that there was a TT in one gallion
and the tonearm in the other. If the slaves wanted some music the only possible way was to connect them somehow.
Regards,
|
Hi Hiho (enter elves stage right!),
I think you can find it here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openmine&zzDgob&4&5#Dgob
I have only seen it but am pleased to hear you suspect that it is 'revolutionary'. I wouldn't be surprised though. It does seem beautifully engineered. |
Dgob: "I think Raul has just posted something about his arm on the MM/MC thread." Any chance you can provide a link so we can have a glimpse of this revolutionary tonearm? Thanks. ____ |
Thanks Dgob,
i went a bit on a side of Copernicus and put the question on "Rauls platform" |
Thucan,
I think Raul has just posted something about his arm on the MM/MC thread. I know that it is aesthetically pleasing but if its performance matches its beauty, we might be in for something very special. |
OK we have a time window for the Apolyt. What about Raul' s tonearm?
Does it appear in 2011? or do we have to wait until all jokes regarding the gallion are told... |
OK. Here's the other one that my friend Rosina told me on the same day.
The Captain says to the crew, "I have good news and bad news.
The good news is that you guys are going to get a change of underwear.
(Big cheer goes up.)
The bad news is: Jose', you change with Pedro. Pedro, you change with Ramon..."
The galleon slave was generally chained to his oar until he died of starvation, physical exertion, etc. Then they would install another to take his place. None of these guys would think of mounting his tonearm on one galleon and his turntable on another. (So this is not OT.) |
|
The galleon captain says to his slave crew, "I have good news and I have bad news."
"What's the good news?" they cried.
He said, "We're going to Jamaica." The response was wild cheering.
Then one of the crew ask, "So what's the bad news?"
The captain replied, "We'll have Buddy Rich beating time."
Hey, German or not, a little humor shouldn't hurt. |
But Nandric, you did like the water skiing joke, I hope. My friend in Barcelona is one of my favorite people on earth. We will visit her this summer, I think, even though she does not have an outboard arm pod. (Nice chassis, though.) |
Dear Lew, The Dutch collectivly deny any sence for humour
to the Germans. I thought because of II WW but I learned that the more probale cause is the lost finale in 1974.
This event they will never forget nor forgive to their
neghbours. On the other hand only 8 examples of your beloved Twain are sold there...So you may be in trouble with some of them. But 'our' Daniel is a world citizen so
you will survive I hope.
Regards, |
Dear Lewm, too bad we won't be able to even test that prospective added benefit regarding water skiing - there is no water-skiing allowed on Lake Ammersee due to wildlife-reserve status (many rare birds here ..;-) ... ) and protected shore-side.
So we have to be content with the huge inertia most likely eliminating all prospective derivations from the desired 33 1/3, 45 and 78 rpm.
Good news are - no one has to row for it.
Bad news are - it won't fit on or into any high-end rack out there.
But then it will come with it's own rack air-suspended with 1.5 Hz resonance frequency.
More in summer 2011.
Cheers,
D. |
Dertonearm, Will Apolyt be pulling water-skiers on the lake in addition to spinning an 88 lb platter? (Thank you for the metric conversion, by the way.)
Joke told to me by Barcelonian in Barcelona at the Maritime Museum:
The galleon captain says to his slave crew, "I have good news and bad news.
"The good news is that King Philip himself is going to visit the ship tomorrow.
The bad news is he wants to go water skiing." |
Dear Thuchan, the Apolyt will be spinning its 88 lbs platter started by idler wheel drive and kept on speed by tangential thread - force free bearing - this summer in Hamburg, Oberstdorf and near the shore of Lake Ammersee. At least we will all see a few pictures here on Audiogon.
Cheers,
D. |
Are there any launching dates of Raul' s tonearm and Dertonearm's turntable? Do we see something in 2011?
Now that would be something to see :-). Derts table using Raul's tonearm being aligned with Dert's universal protractor. |
Dear Thuchan, You are teasing or you are an optimist. I myself can imagine such a date only in hereafter.
Regards, |
Are there any launching dates of Raul' s tonearm and Dertonearm's turntable? Do we see something in 2011? |
Chris,
No doubt about it. The importance of unexpected family appreciation has only been further enhanced by the fact that it has cost me nothing to achieve these results: other than a little time in ensuring perfect set up parameters. |
