The guy saying the paint color on magnets makes a difference is the same guy who told us several years ago that one of his little clocks affects the sound of a live symphony orchestra and the picture on a television even if the battery in the clock is dead. You decide who is worth listening to. That's the last I'll have to say about this individual. So lets drop all the snarky comments and silliness (paint colors on magnets make a difference) and talk some science.
If you focus on what is really happening in a cable or any path that a signal follows then it makes sense that magnets will affect that signal. Talking about electron flow is fundamentally the wrong way to describe what is happening. The water flowing in a hose analogy is fundamentally flawed. The correct way to look at it is that energy is being transferred from the source to the load (like amp to speaker) in the form of an electromagnetic wave. Any movement of electrons is a result of the energy transfer, not the other way around. This is proven by the fact that electromagnetic waves do not need electrons in wires to travel as evidenced by the ones that travel from a radio tower to your receiver's antenna.
Since the moving energy has a magnetic component, and magnets interact with each other, it makes sense that introducing magnets will affect this transfer. It seems to me that the end result can only be that the signal is changed (distorted). I suppose that change could be perceived as an improvement.
For this discussion to really be useful we need some results as Parabolic states. Like where the magnets were placed and how it affected the sound.
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Very interesting stuff. Can any of you fellas point to an article or guide that talks about what to use, and how? I'm new at this and wouldn't know where to begin placing magnets in or on my system.
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This thread consumed 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back. I think reading it made me a bit more dumb. |
the best diy i do is keep moving my speakers and listening chair until i have the perfect sound for the right cd , the recordings of cds is so different speaker placement is vital if you want to get the best out of any system , i love neil young recordings they are very consistent, i find at least one in five cds especially some of the new recordings need the speaker placement diy , biggest free upgrade for me |
maur53,
Sorry -- I thought we were talking about audio. |
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maur53
Give it a try and let us know how this sounds to you. |
Perception is not always reality.
Judge Judy quote " don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining".
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Here is a sound improvement idea that works very well for many people. Play a CD. Then place the same CD on top of a Schumann resonance device for 10 seconds before re-playing. You may be very happy with the effect. |
Kavakat, nice experiment.
Placing of transducers is an art, I’m told, so don’t be too discouraged if it doesn’t work well the first time. Another issue is power - you need 50W per record, according to the DIY Audio thread, which is also my experience. And something to heat the bath. I find that 40C is about right. At least to start with; actually I use 48 +/- 3, but I have a commercial unit with good temperature control. Also, an 80KHz transducer is the perfect choice, and absolutely requires an inch spacing between each record to let the US wave develop.
There’s a thread by Rushton here which can tell you quite a lot. Nice project. |
And now, for something completely different. I am building an ultrasonic record cleaner, having been given a rotted out ultrasonic cleaner from my dentist when he got a new one. Took off the two 80hz transducer discs and glued them onto a rectangular metal dish used in cafeterias to keep food warm as you walk along the Def serve line. Then the same controls from the old cleaner. Will make the actual record holder and spinner as in the you tube videos for the project. About $70. Instead of $4000.
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terry9,
I stick to making cables and creating various kinds of accessories (tweaks), some of which are based on the work of others, like my own version of HFTs, and some of which I have invented. |
I do quite a lot of DIY, sabai. All my electronics, my turntable, cables, and I also modify speakers and tonearm. It's very satisfying. My Koetsu alone is unmodified.
I don't pretend to have the best circuit topology (although it's pretty good), but it is the best in terms of components; and more importantly, it's best in terms of what I want to do. I build in the controls that I want, like variable RIAA compensation. I also build in the opportunity to test components in my system, which leads to objective results following blind testing.
Just about any DIY project is worth the trouble if you stick to the physics. That's important, or you can spend big bucks on what amounts to a tone control, or worse, just placebo effect.
The physics says capacitors and resistors and transistor and tubes. And clean, low ripple power supply. And connectors with good metallurgy. And clean records. And room treatment, which I forgot the last time I talked about this, ditto resonance control for turntables.
Plus, site-specific problems which need fixing. If you live near a railroad line, you need to control vibration with suspension on your turntable. If you live near a telecom farm, you need to control RF.
If you build it, you will use it (probably). I've done it since grad school, and now I'm retired. What's changed is the sophistication of the devices, but not the fun. |
Spencer,
I did not understand geoffkait's post on colored magnets and took it as mockery and sarcasim, the mistake lies with my lack of knowledge of what I am still guessing at is painted magnets. I realize now that I was still mad at geoffkait about what he said in another thread and it played out here. Plus I am not a quantum physicists.
geoffkait,
Radio frequency (RF) is any of the electromagnetic wave frequencies that lie in the range extending from around 3 kHz to 300 GHz.
EMI is used to jam radio frequncies, I was under the impression that the
field generated by magnets was vectoring out or perpendicular to the surface.
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Magnets and pimples is not DIY, it's woodoo. Nelson Pass amp kit is DIY. |
When GK is in heavy rotation on the topic, my BS meter goes "whoop whoop whoop"... To your point, I got a Shunyata Venon power cord for $100 and it was the first PC that made a noticeable improve in the sound on my system.
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Geoff vs. Jeffrey; no wonder there viewpoints are magnetically opposed. Maybe they are Bizarro twins? :-)
Cheers,
Spencer |
geoffkait,
Yes, indeed -- but there is no confusion at all in the content of my posting.
I am simply quoting what you said. |
Someone mentioned magnets were being used to cut down on RFI/EMI. That’s an interesting idea in light of the fact, no pun intended, that RF is comprised of photons which as we know have no magnetic charge. Even if they did how would magnets attract all the RF in the room? Doesn’t make sense. After a while you'd have a big clump of photons sitting there in the room. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense it not true. |
Sabai, oh, there's some confusion all right. 😃 |
geoffkait,
With all due respect, I think you may have some of us confused.
You stated, "Sabai, actually I haven’t explained anything yet ..." after you already stated, "Sabai, I already explained what I meant by that statement ..." and "i already explained that too." Hmmm.
And you stated, "What you interpret as waffling is actually your misunderstanding of what I said or your jumping to conclusions ..." You already stated, "In fact magnetism, generally speaking, is very bad for the sound." But, according to your latest statement, I either misunderstood this statement -- which sounds very clear to me -- or I jumped a conclusion: that you meant that magnetism is bad for the sound after you stated that magnetism is bad for the sound. Hmmm.
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Breaking News! I installed 30 copper bowls, 15 were 1" and the other 15 were 1/2". They were all installed in room corners, upper and lower, in some cases more than one per corner as there are 3 surfaces per corner. Without commenting on the sonic results yet, in my portable headphone system, I'm reporting that the TV picture is quite a bit better. In fact I had to recalibrate the color saturation from 3 down to 2. Never had to do that before. Whaaaaaaat? 😀
Cheers, everybody!
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toddverrone
Geoff, I waffle between thinking you know what you're talking about and thinking you're a loony.
I bet you'd be fun to have a beer with. Non magnetic, of course
What's this, Revenge of the Nerds Pt. 2?
😀
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sabai OP
geoffkait,
I see. Your comment that seemed very clear needed some explaining.
Sabai, actually I haven’t explained anything yet. Aren't you even curious?
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Sabai wrote,
"Geoffkait often waffles as you correctly observed. He owns an audio company so his postings should be read advisedly. His agenda is obviously to promote sales. Otherwise, why would he mention his own products and history so frequently? Not for educational purposes. All in my opinion."
Huh? What you interpret as waffling is actually your misunderstanding of what I said or your jumping to conclusions. You have done this many times on this thread, I’m afraid. Your continued snarkiness is duly noted.
have a nice day
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uberdine,
I see. You're fortunate -- as long as the volcano is not active. |
Sabai, I live on an ancient volcano so there's basalt everywhere, but I imagine any rock with iron in it will do the trick?
(Geoff I can sell you basalt rock at $500 a chip...) |
geoffkait,
I see. Your comment that seemed very clear needed some explaining. |
uberdine,
Basalt? I will see if I can get hold of some. How heavy is the chunk?
You stated, "
If a tweak isn't jaw-dropping, it's not a tweak, it's nonsense." I tend to agree. I agree with you about expectation bias.
You stated, "Turns out you absolutely have to spend $500-$700 bucks on speaker cable, but no more." It was less than $300 for my pure silver speaker wires.
jeffrey75,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will do some A/B-ing with this.
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sabai,
You have asked for DIY "bang for the buck" experiences , I have one simple
suggestion. If there is a modem in the house use ethernet cord(s) and shut
off WiFi at the modem lessening the effect of RF pollution.
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I'm instinctively wary of audiophile nonsense but have enough time on my hands (I'm a writer...) that I've tried most of the tweaks that Geoff specialises in. For what it's worth I've discovered the following three things:
1. Turns out you absolutely have to spend $500-$700 bucks on speaker cable, but no more. In fact I made the TNT cable out of cat5 for around $50 and that was superb, although I can no longer use it with my current amp.
2. Don't bother with fuses or clocks or coloured marker pens, let alone fuse directionality; it's all expectation bias. Although...
3. Get this: I put a chunk of iron-rich basalt on top of my preamp's transformer and it cleaned up some system noise. Go figure, but it totally works. Sabai, I imagine something similar is going on with your magnets. It's not subtle, which is the acid test for tweaks. If you're thinking, "Yeah, yeah, wait, that does have a darker background/better PRAT/sounds more like live music," then, it doesn't. Expectation bias. If a tweak isn't jaw-dropping, it's not a tweak, it's nonsense.
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jeffrey75,
You stated, "In short they are still doing what they are designed to and believe sabai is creating a field to keep EMI and RF out with magnets as well."
This is correct.
toddverrone,
You need to read geoffkait carefully since he often waffles, as you correctly observed. He owns an audio company so his postings should be read advisedly. His agenda is obviously to promote sales. Otherwise, why would he mention his own products and history so frequently? Not for educational purposes. All in my opinion. |
Geoff, I waffle between thinking you know what you're talking about and thinking you're a loony.
I bet you'd be fun to have a beer with. Non magnetic, of course |
Jeffrey,
To close the loop more or less, my use of magnets, colored magnets, has nothing at all to do with RF, EMI, electromagnetic fields, with addressing magnetism is the audio system, or with the audio signal at all, actually, or with room acoustics, or even house wiring for that matter. And the products of mine that incorporate magnets, with one exception, do not address any of those issues either. I know what you’re thinking, what’s left, right? That’s what I meant when I said this talk about magnets might open up a whole can of worms. 😃
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geoffkait,
Thank you for the clarification on painted magnets and see your post
for what it is now and realize I jumped the gun... One of my first purchases
here on Audiogon was a set of A.M. GA-0's that as you probably already know are two magnets wrapped around gold plated conductors to create a field that keeps electronic and RF smog out of the signal. In short they are still doing what they are designed to and believe sabai is creating a field to keep EMI and RF out with magnets as well.
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koestner
Geoffkait: "My thesis, which was selected to be presented at the national AIAA conference, was on the dodgy subject of bombarding highly magnetized metal with high energy ions to produce low thrust for an engine to be used for interplanetary travel."
Is that how you plan to make it back home?
Whoa! What?! Ouch!
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Jeffery75
geoffkait,
I have attempted to educate myself concerning magnets and colors,
are you referring to different alloys as color? That is the crux of my post
and what I misread into as being sarcasm.
i already explained that too. They're painted magnets. Either neodymium or ceramic. I also already explained different colors for different materials. Going a bit further, blue for anything steel, red for anything aluminum, green for any glass including mirrors, TV screen, any and all colors for wood.
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geoffkait,
I have attempted to educate myself concerning magnets and colors,
are you referring to different alloys as color? That is the crux of my post
and what I misread into as being sarcasm.
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geoffkait,
No, it was a generalized statement combining moving magnets and magnetic fields, but I suppose only you can make a generalized statement and waffle either direction.
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jeffrey75
geooffkait,
This is from Wikipedia;
A magnetic cartridge (phono cartridge) is a type of transducer used in the playback of analog sound recordings called records on a record player, now commonly called a turntable because of its most prominent component but formally known as a phonograph in the US and a gramophone in the UK.
This from Dynavector;
The The DV XX-2 MKII retains the benefit of the flux damper but features the Alinco-5 magnet and the similar rigid construction to the Te Kaitora Rua. Alnico magnets exhibit high magnetic flux density combining with a low coercive therefore magnetic resistance is lower than other magnetic types such as rare earth and ferrite, providing the exceptional stability of the XX-2 MKII output voltage.
My point being magnetism or it’s field wields beneficial use in phono cartridges and interconnects to stabilize signal.
Your sarcasm concerning colors of magnets really rubbed me the wrong way. Magnets and magnetism have a defining place in audio your thesis does not...
..............................
You started out on the wrong foot by misspelling my name. You also probably need to read up a little bit on moving magnets and moving magnetic fields before rushing into this discussion. I never said ALL magnets were bad or that all magnetism is bad. You probably didn’t notice my saying I’ve been using magnets in my system for almost 20 years. (Yup, you guessed it, sarcasm)
Magnetism is High Fidelity magnetic conduction interconnects is apparently a good thing. However magnetism in conventional cables is not a good thing. Due to the induced magnetic field. Didn’t I already say that? (Sarcasm)
I wasn’t being sarcastic when I referred to colors and magnets. I suppose this is the star of the can of worms opening up. (Now I’m being sarcastic again)
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geoffkait, This is from Wikipedia; A magnetic cartridge (phono cartridge) is a type of transducer used in the playback of analog sound recordings called records on a record player, now commonly called a turntable because of its most prominent component but formally known as a phonograph in the US and a gramophone in the UK. This from Dynavector; The The DV XX-2 MKII retains the benefit of the flux damper but features the Alinco-5 magnet and the similar rigid construction to the Te Kaitora Rua. Alnico magnets exhibit high magnetic flux density combining with a low coercive therefore magnetic resistance is lower than other magnetic types such as rare earth and ferrite, providing the exceptional stability of the XX-2 MKII output voltage. My point being magnetism or it’s field wields beneficial use in phono cartridges and interconnects to stabilize signal. Your sarcasm concerning colors of magnets really rubbed me the wrong way. Magnets and magnetism have a defining place in audio your thesis does not... |
Sabai, I already explained what I meant by that statement.
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geoffkait,
What I was referring to was your generalized statement that "In fact magnetism, generally speaking, is very bad for the sound." I am not the only one who has found that magnets greatly improve the sound. |
Sabai wrote,
"geoffkait,
You stated, "In fact magnetism, generally speaking, is very bad for the sound." Not in my system. There are many people who use magnetic cables and find them superior to non-magnetic cables.
Please note that my earlier posting did not refer to using magnets with cables, although I do use that application, as well."
The magnetic induction cables avoid the induced magnetic field produced by conventional cables and use high permeability alloy for the conductor which would absorb any magnetic field that might exist anyway. So, that’s not a very good example to use to dispute by statement. 😄
I never said you did refer to using magnets with cables. Nor did I say magnets didn’t work in your system. I was making a general statement about magnetism. The magnet’s magnetic field B is orthogonal to the signal direction in cables so probably won’t interfere, depends how you’re using them. Generally speaking I have no problem whatsoever using magnets almost anywhere, especially when they are painted the right color for the application. Color is just as important as the magnet. I used or have used magnets for more than 15 years, both ceramic and neodymium types, for everything from wood bookshelves to glass to circuit boards to steel or aluminum chassis, to walls and ceilings. See, I told you it would open up a can of worms. |
geoffkait,
You stated, "In fact magnetism, generally speaking, is very bad for the sound." Not in my system. There are many people who use magnetic cables and find them superior to non-magnetic cables.
Please note that my earlier posting did not refer to using magnets with cables, although I do use that application, as well.
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Geoff - sorry for the joke. I sent it before I could consider. I hold no animosity toward you, and hope you can accept it as just a quick poke.
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"My thesis, which was selected to be presented at the national AIAA
conference, was on the dodgy subject of bombarding highly magnetized
metal with high energy ions to produce low thrust for an engine to be
used for interplanetary travel."
Is that how you plan to make it back home?
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In fact magnetism, generally speaking, is very bad for the sound. Having electron tubes in proximity to large transformers is not good for the sound. Having any electronic elements or wiring in proximity to large transformers is bad for the sound. Even the induced magnetic field in is bad for the sound. In fact, the whole point of SHIELDING transformers is to REDUCE magnetic fields around ANYTHING carringly the audio signal and in some cases the chassis. My thesis, which was selected to be presented at the national AIAA conference, was on the dodgy subject of bombarding highly magnetized metal with high energy ions to produce low thrust for an engine to be used for interplanetary travel.
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I will use two specific examples from my system to illustrate my point. I have used single neodymium magnets (N50) at the breaker (as per the above posting) and on the QOL (as per the above posting). In neither case was the effect with a single neodymium magnet even close to the effect with 12 neodymium magnets. |
Disclosure: I am not associated with any audio company and I am not using this forum to promote any products from any audio company or any audio-related company.
My experience has shown that neodymium magnets sometimes work much better in packets than singly, and that their color has no bearing on their sonic effects.
Thankfully, I have not fallen off any trucks in the past 20 years. |
