A $300-$400 turntable tweak

Suteetat/Halcro, Popper learned from Tarski about 'the
truth'(aka 'satisfaction approach'). Then he used this
approch to illustrate his 'theory of refutation'. A 'theory' in the sense of 'all swans are white'. Thanks to his stay in Australia he was able to demonstrate at some philosophical meeting in England how easy it is to refute an theory. He repeted the universal quantification:
'All swans are white' and then pulled just one black swan
from his hat (?) which he brought from Australia for the
purpose. The colleaques were astonished but the most of then wanted to check if this swan was not painted black.

Regards,

I have only one record warped badly enough to cause mistracking on the leading few stanzas of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto (DGG).
This would now be the only valid reason for me retrieving the rim- weight from the depths of my cupboards :-)
YMMV,IMHO,Only tested on 2 turntables, Personal Opinion, Warning:may be totally wrong.

I've got a center clamp and I've been thinking of getting a periphery ring just for use on dish-warped records. Playing the concave side of a dish-warped record has got to wreak havoc on azimuth, no?

-Bob

Any system that I have heard with one of these being used I have always preferred listening without, most not all owners I know have actually gotten rid of theirs at some point.

That's what makes it so interesting in this whole journey of ours but still it's just an opinion that we share, some agree and some don't and that's okay.

As long as you are enjoying listening to your music, that's really all that matters right.

Enjoy!

Dear Suteetat: +++++ " to say that ring clamp is universally bad is just plain idiotic... " +++++

I can't argue what Halcro posted because I never had an in deep first hand experience with the ring clamps but from where you taked that Halcro said: " ring clamp is universally bad... ", I can't find it through Halcro's posts.

So maybe you had a misunderstood on the subject or perhaps when you readed Halcro's posts was not the " bets time " for you.

Btw, what do you think on this post:

" Asthetix Rhea with my ASR II Exclusive. Asthetix was terrible... "

Anyway, I think that what Halcro already brings/bringed here open or opened many interesting audio subjects about audio distortions and our each one distortions perception, sensitivity and how those distortions " appeal " to each one of us and of course all these speaks of our today system quality performance level at each one home. Even we could talk why we are willing to accept those distortions and which kind of distortions we are " accustom " the hear.

IMHO Rccc put the finger/nail where it " hurts ":

++++ Its also possible that some like a little ringing as it adds "liveliness" to the sound and can be mistaken for "air", this is sometimes true of micro phonic tubes which in some cases sound more open. " +++++

Halcro I don't have a scientific answers on the subject but IMHO could be interesting to " explore " what RCCC posted because that " point " not only is speaking of our each one preferences but speaks too about our each one Audio System Limitations Factor Level.

IMHO this ASLFL is critical to each one opinion on audio subjects comparisons and in this " way " what you like or what Suteetat or RCCC or me depend on that ASLFL.

I had and have frist hand experiences with vacuum hold down TT systems and I heard ring clamps in other systems and obviously experiences with out those " system clamps ".

IMHO each one has its own trade-offs and certainly we will like the one that match our each one trade-offs that we are willing to accept ( because nothing is perfect. ).

Now, which is the best one? wich is right?, well from an objective point of view I don't have the answer because I don't know any " model/scientific model " that can tell me or predict in precise way which is better " universatility ".
So I have to return to that ASLFL that has a high subjective " weight ".

This Halcro thread gives me a reason to try again in my system the vaccum hold down " system " that I don't use it for several months maybe years and I will look with some of my audio friends where I can have a ring clamp to test it too.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

The only idiotic comment made in this thread is Suteetat's personal attack of Halcros's observation, by characterizing it as "idiotic".

Ct0517, well, you may read the message differently than I am but the way I see it, Halcro made a blanket statement basically saying that ring clamp is bad period, not try and see if it is better or worse with and without ring clamp.

I think I waste enough of my time here. A much more interesting thread about ring clamp, both positive and negative, is on going here on the same page anyhow.

Ha. Love this one.
IMO much the same can be said for record clamps and weights.
Of course YMMV.

Suteetat

I read Henry's OP to mean if you are using one and have been for a while - try it without and see what happens. Nothing more nothing less. If it works for you great - if not keep on listening - enjoy your music.

These rings are available for sale as used items. What does that imply to you? Well to me it means some people don't like them.

Henry's OP enthusiasm when he got his music synergy back was after 3 weeks of hey "whats going on here something does not sound right".

The fact he kept trying for 3 weeks with all his lps tells you something. If he tried 5 lps and said thats it - it doesnt work - thats a different kettle of fish.

No brand of ring was mentioned in the OP.

I suggest that you remove your outer rim weight and actually listen to some music.
Perhaps you might hear something?
If not......please carry on.

Actually since you are the one making claim that it is worthless period, other people basically either said they did not like it when they tried in their system or it depends on the system. No one else is trying to claim anything like yours so yes, my comment is really for cancelling your rather idiotic comment only.

When you try it in every table and find it is universally bad then may be you can talk.

As this is an impossible task for any component in audio, you are effectively canceling all comments henceforth.
Sounds slightly 'idiotic' to me?

I use ring clamp on my VPI and heard my friend's Clearaudio Innovation Wood with Clearaudio ring clamp often enough. I would not say that ring clamp is universally good for all system but to say that ring clamp is universally bad is just plain idiotic. Have you tried every tables available with ring clamp already to make such announcement? When you try it in every table and find it is universally bad then may be you can talk.

I agree that it does seem to be 'table dependent, along with weights and clamps. There is an inter-play with the platter surface at work that can change how the vibrations in the vinyl behave. We heard this when the Galibier platter changed to the graphite TPI and the Anvil weight became undesirable on that surface. I prefer the ever so slight bit of ringing to the compression of over damping on my Gavia. These kinds of accessories seem to work best when taken into the design of the platter, rather than added later. Mileage will definitely vary. :-)

Syntax and Rccc are probably right about some vacuum tables. They seem to be a different kettle of fish.......I've heard the Basis Debut Gold and the Continuum Caliburn which seem to suffer no ill effects?
I would really like to comprehend a scientific explanation for the audible effects?

You're right Chris.
Three weeks of un-fulfillment without being able to pinpoint a reason is frustrating.
The strange phenomenon is that the 'sins of omission' are not instantly audible when one inserts the outer ring into the system?
The return of the air and 'magic' is instantly audible upon removal of the outer ring??!
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that blind testing is so difficult and unpredictable and, in my opinion, unreliable?

I used a ring clamp for a while and while I didnt think it detracted I didnt find it an improvement either. I have since then used Sota vacuum tables. I will never go back. I think youll find most vacuum table owners feel the same way. Who knows why. Its also possible that some like a little ringing as it adds "liveliness" to the sound and can be mistaken for "air", this is sometimes true of micro phonic tubes which in some cases sound more open.

Henry - it must have been a difficult 3 weeks for you wondering where all the music went :(

Halcro is right with the outer ring. I was never mad for it after listening.
Vacuum is a bit different, different depending on the idea behind and some other solutions. Basis for example uses low sucking force and has an extremely clever made platter with an superior suspension. Here is definitely an improvement to hear, still full of live with all tonal details.

I think it all depends on the table, platter composition and surface material, and the ability of the tonearm/transducer to accurately trace the LP. I have tried 6 or 8 center weights/clamps/doohickeys, as well as a perimeter ring and found that on each occasion they detracted from my musical enjoyment in precisely the way Halcro has described - lifeless, boring, flat, sterile, dead. Perhaps folks who prefer these devices are simultaneously taming platters and plinths that are improperly damped or have resonance issues to begin with. Maybe this iron-handedness simultaneously "helps" other issues further down the chain, such as distortion/overload in the phono stage (a phenomenon more common than I ever believed) – any system freed from having to reproduce distortions is, subjectively, better sounding, even if the proverbial baby has been thrown out with the bath water. You never realize the baby is gone, since you couldn’t hear it through all the muck in the first place. I’m not saying destructive over-damping occurs all the time with a clamp/ring, but going too far is a distinct possibility.
Then again, maybe those of us with high(er) mass tables are already sufficiently damping the things that need control, and to further damp the sound is a step too far. As a disclaimer, I've never personally tried a vacuum platter deck, but every time I've heard one, I've always felt that the sound was overly damped. YMMV and all that. Have a nice weekend.

Like a vampire sucking the blood from a human victim, the outer rim weight sucks the life and soul from the vinyl.
It seems like such a logical thing to do.........flatten and couple the record to the platter......that it is bewildering to me that it doesn't work?
Perhaps vacuum suction similarly can be deleterious as there are many decks which 'make do' without?

I forgot to add...I think my Well Tempered Super sounds better without the center clamp. Alot less fuss too.

So, you are saying it is worse with the ring?