Can you correct nulls with acoustic treatments.


I have Magnepan 1.6's. After hearing a musical clarity I really liked in a listening session at someone else's house, I broke down and bought a Rat Shack SPL meter and dowloaded some test files. I wanted to see if it was the acoustics or the type of speakers and system that made the difference.

A brief testing showed a 65 to 80 hz., 5 or 6 db. bump (the drywall bump?) that I had expected. What I didn't expect was 10 to 15 hz. wide nulls (-10,-15,even -20 db.) at several other frequencies.

I tried moving speaker positioning and the frequency of the nulls moved but the pattern was basically the same.

Acoustic treatment to tame + nodes seems intuitive. Can you treat nulls or is this a different problem?

Would really appreciate your thoughts.

Jim S.

stilljd
Jim,

Check out this Standing Waves

If the speakers are 53" from the back wall then you will get a first dip at around 64 Hz followed by another at 128 Hz and another at 256 Hz...

This is a common problem for all freestanding speakers. Of course, your ACTUAL room response will include all kinds of other standing waves; but rear wall quarter wavelengh cancellations will dominate the omnidirectional upper bass and lower mid range frequencies up to roughly 500 Hz, as it is the closest wall to the speakers, the surface is roughly equidistant to the listener, and therefore the wall produces the strongest and broadest coherent signal that aligns and either reinforces or cancels the primary speaker signal reaching the listener across the room.

This effect is well known. Being a detrimental first order effect it is worth worrying about as it dominates. Therefore most studios (who can afford and need to do it right or the mix will not transalate) will mount main speakers into a wall and completely eliminate this first order problem and leaving only third order effects from side walls/ceiling and a second order effect from rear wall (behind the listener). So the rear wall behind the listener is the NEXT biggest problem after fixing the quarter wave front wall nulls (Studios often put plenty of rear wall absorption to counter the effect or they try to ensure the listening postion is far enough away from the rear wall for this effect to remain small enough, or they will mix in a nearfield configuration far from all walls and where primary signal is very strong due to the proximity of the speaker to the listener).

You can ignore sharp eratic 2,3 or 4 Hz nulls above 172 Hz. The half wavelength of 172 Hz is roughly 3 feet so moving your microphone a foot or so will make likely make a significant difference at these frequencies (as you approach one side reflection or another the null shifts around...so trying to fix these kind of nulls may only shift the problem somewhere else by a foot or two or several hertz).

This is all high school acoutsic physics - no rocket science. I use "order" in a liberal fashion first order is the worst detrimental effect, second order is the next bad effect, third order is even less of a problem etc.

It often makes me wonder why megabuck systems make little effort to deal with this well known, easily understood, and well documented problem.

The above is not the same as Room Modes. Room Modes is a similar problem of standing waves but is much more complex. Room modes tend to dominate the ultra LF below 100 Hz but odd things can sometimes happen at higher frequencies in peculiar circumstances where dimensions happen to couple with eachother at certain frequencies at the listener position.
BTW: 128+64 = 192 HZ may also be another problem null area with speakers at 53" from rear wall...of course given other room modes/rear wall effects you may not clearly see every one of these dips, as the rear wall quarter wave cancellation effect, as seen by your microphone/SPL meter, is already combined with lots of other reverberant effects in the room.

Disclaimer: Fixing rear wall quarter wavelength may then lead you to see other problems more distinctly. So it is no cure all. For example it won't eliminate the problem of very bad room dimensions or lack of absorptive surfaces/furnture and acoustic treatment. In my experience it improves imaging and clarity in the lower midrange but does nothing for what are often huge room modal bumps below 60 HZ.
Acoustat6,
I have read through the Real Traps site and a lot of Ethan Winer's posts on AA. Learning a lot.

Thanks,
Jim S.
Shadorne,

Thanks for your input again. I have read your suggested links and am trying to assimilate the info. I would like to make a couple of smart changes and not a couple of hundred dumb ones. But, to be honest, I am something of a slow study.

As I see it, I have a room mode boost peaking at around 75hz., and a set of cancelation nulls peaking at 127hz and 250hz., with a few anomalies thrown in to confuse the uninitiated (me). Makes me wish I hadn't cut most of Senior year in High school.

It fits what you have described. I keep trying to figure out how the angled walls off to the sides of the speakers fit in. Maybe they really don't change the equations!

If the analysis is that straight forward, surely there is some corollary that dictates the solution is going to be complex!!!!!

I have unknowingly played with positioning that would significantly change quarter wave cancelation when I first got the 1.6's, 6 yrs. ago, and was trying to optimize bass output. At the time I didn't like it, but now I am wondering if it wasn't reinforcing the bass (or more accurately covering up for lack of bass) of the Maggies with a room mode and cancelations.

Anyway, more food for thought. THANKS for the info and analysis. I will try to post meaningful information and conclusions as things go forward.

P.S. I can mount the 1.6's into the wall behind them (soffet mounting taken to the extreme). It opens into a laundry room. Might try that someday.

Best Regards,
Jim S.
OK, this is not supposed to work with Magnepans but you have to follow the trail and see where it leads, if that makes sense.

I try what is written in the Genelec sites, that Shadorne has lead me to, about positioning to avoid 1/4 wave cancelations. According to everything written (their manual and everywhere else I have read) about positioning Maggies, they should be as far out from the back wall as possible.

Well shoot.... I do the calculations on the site, follow their recommendation to keep back wall distance 1 meter or less, and figure I am trading one set of cancelations for another. Low and behold, I move the speakers back from 50 some odd inches to about 30" from the back wall and play Patti Smith's Gung Ho, (not exactly an Audiophile recording but what the hey). OMG, the bass is up a notch and very clear! I mean, it is not subtle.

Ok, so I measure with my limited means and where I thought I would have traded an 60 or 90hz. null for a 110hz. null. the 60 was still there, the 90 wasn't as deep and the broad 100hz. to 160 hz. deep null was just gone. Replaced by a slight bump.

Ok, what is going on? I do the calculations for a 1/2 wave and it should be close to the 1/4 wave but instead there is a null at 230-240hz. Back to reading!

Anyway, what shouldn't work with Maggies does. At least in my room.

In all fairness it does generate some other issues. The tweeters are now close enough to the back wall and directionally pointed at the listening position to beam. Also brings into play reflections from a patio door behind and to the left of the LP that wasn't a concern before. Lessened those effects by tilting the speakers back a little.

FWIW,
Jim S.