Opinions on Power Regenerators and Tube Amps

Arthur.....I just reread all of this. I wouldn't mind keeping this discussion going. What Nsgarch said at the beginning is probably what I now have. A low level hum/buzz with the volume cranked, and the preamp set to phono. I hear it in the mid and the woofer more so than in the tweeter. It's not much, but it is much if I plug in the active shielding on a Synergistic Looking Glass interconnect that runs from phono stage (Musical Fidelity LP3) to Levinson preamp. I wish I had known that active shields don't work in the analog area, since I purchased that IC recently. If things remain the same, I will eventually change those ICs. Always wanted Music Groove anyway :) And then back to regen power. I would invest in say, a P-300, if it did nothing more than improve the performance of my Wadia and my preamp 1 percent. If I could hear even a small improvement in vocals, or timbre, or soundstage, I would consider that a bargain. I would love to know if any or all of you use regulated power for your analog equipment.....turntable and phono stage. I have thought about the VPI SDS power supply also. I try to make good decisions mostly based on the input I get from right here on Agon. I don't have a local 2-channel high end store anywhere near, so I rarely try things out. Whoever in here said that your performance is only as good as the weakest link in your system, I think was right on. I recently took one of the mouse traps off my floor (I fine tune crossovers outside the box using some cheap hookup wire to run into the box), and installed it in my bass cabinet. Soldered it point to point with Kimber wire and Cardas copper binding posts. The improvement in bass response is quite something....deeper, tighter, and with snap....it's there and it's gone....quick. Probably an extreme example, but it was a lesson for me. No more testing with cheap hook up wire and what else in my system is weak. And so I talk too much?

Look, Racer, I'll go out on a limb and repeat myself:

1.) Forget a regenerator. You don't need one with good ded circuits and good utility service. Plug your amp into the (20A) wall.

2.) Forget power conditioners. Old technology. If you don't believe me, read PS Audio's blurb on their PS-300 webpage.

3.) If you want to do something more for your sources, get a balanced power unit from either Equi=tech, ExactPower, or Balanced Power Technologies. Do your homework and decide which one you like best. I won't make a recommendation, except to say you won't need a megawatt sized one for just the front end stuff (since your amp won't benefit from balanced power as much as just a good ded circuit.)

4.) Do get some tonearm cables made for that purpose. In order of performance (IMO and ones I'm familiar with of course) Siltech, Purist Venustas, Silver Breeze, Hovland Music Groove, Cardas Golden Reference.

5.) Get the same make/model ICs from phono preamp to preamp as the TA cables. Synergy is a good thing in this application (I didn't realize your ML 38 didn't have built-in phono.)
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A little late to the dance on this one, but my 2 cents. I am in agreement with Nsgarch, somewhat. The difference from what Nsgarch said, I plug my amps into a simple filter. It is a non current limiting filter, I feel I get some benefit from the filter at a very small cost.

As far as an active power conditioner, I used PS Audio's P600 for my Audio system several years ago. I had a Cary V12 power amp at the time. When plugging the amp into the 600 and using any of the Multi-wave setting, I would get mechanical hum from the output transformers on the V12. This did not occur when using a straight sine wave setting. After talking to Denice from Cary, and, reading all I could at the time, this is not an uncommon phenomenon. Denice said as well as PS Audio's web site, this did not hurt the amp in anyway, but I decided not to run the amp through the P600 anyway. It was caused from the metal laminates vibrating on the transformers. The P600 now was used only for the front end of the system, a little over-kill, a P300 would have worked just fine for this application, I sold the 600 and bought a 300 and used this setup for 4+ years. About 2 years ago a friend of mine started reading about these passive balanced power conditioners. He bought a Blue Circle MR800 and brought it over for a listen. It was as good as the P300 but without the heat and power usage. I sold the P300 and bought the Blue Circle MR1200 thinking I could now use it for the Power amp as well as the front end. This worked great until now when I decided to actively bi-amp. I guess my point is as far as the amp goes, buy a simple non current limiting filter, I am using the Welbourn filter, cost $150.00 6 months ago. You do have to assemble it but is kind of fun and cost effective. The PS Audio's Ultimate Outlet would also work very well, a lot more money new and a little more money used. The good news about buying this piece used, these devises don't have anything that could be worn over time.

As Nsgarch says, a good passive balanced power conditioner (I might ad Blue Circle's name to his short list of passive conditions), the difference from his point of view, use it for the whole system front end and the amp, just make sure that your wattage used is not more than the power conditioners rated output by quite a bit. You need to allow for added short term power from your amp, a whole other issue. Or, a balanced power conditioner for the front end and a filter for the amps. As I stated earlier, this is just a 2 cent opinion and only a 2 cent opinion.

Oh, don't forget to use good power cords, this maybe is the best performance improvement regarding power supply...........Bob

I use an MIT passive filter in the form of the "Z-Strip" and I noticed a rather obvious improvement in noise floor reduction. I recommend it based on several experiments where I would add it and then remove it to see the difference. It works consistently with everything. But I haven't tried any others so.... My audio buddies use the PS Audio Ultimate Outlets and got similar results.

My reservation about power regenerators is that many times, more noise comes from the stereo components than the incoming power. I have seen this MANY times testing electronic equipment in my lab. You can even see the results that the rat's nest of cables can bring on - by jiggling the cables, you can see the noise level change on an oscilloscope. It is interesting and scary at the same time. A regenerator won't make a bit of difference here since the noise is injected downstream of it.

However, it is unclear as to whether your problem is the incoming power or your amps. At very high gain, everything is amplified and there is no way to know what is the cause without experimenting. If the regenerator lowers your noise floor, then the problem was your power. If not, it is your amps. I am inclined to believe it is the residual noise floor of your amps you are hearing.

Since the noise isn't really coming from your tweeter, I suspect you may be hearing spurious noise from your power supply in 60 and/or 120Hz form. Only that frequency range would be audible from your woofers and mids. The noise I was talking about before is much higher in frequency and so is only heard in the tweeter. I don't think any regenerator is going to solve this problem but passive filtering might. Let us know what you find out!

Arthur

I almost always agree with Nsgarsh,but I'm not sure about this latest thought.For me,regenerated power has a distinctive advantage.
I have a dedicated room,with three dedicated lines.I recently had a new,quality circuit breaker box installed,in basement.Nice Improvement!!I added PS Audio ultimate outlets to my front end stuff,after hearing them(CD/LP/Pre/phono),with my amp plugged into a UPC 200.All were superior to wall,and previous passive stuff.THEN I got a PS Audio P-500 for my front end stuff.I have amps on another line and don't want to pull everything from one outlet,so they will not be run from regenerated a/c("drats").The difference with the P-500,only on pre/phonostage,CD player,turntable,was DRAMATIC.Obviously way beyond the very good Ultimate outlets.Not close,actually.I don't know,for sure,if it is the "balanced power" or the perfect regenerated sine wave.Probably both.BUT I can now,not live without this.The business of eaking itsy bitsy tweaks in other areas,like the latest cone,or shelf,though very important,pales by comparison.
My conclusion is anyone NOT running a well thought out "power management system" has not heard what their stuff can do.I was surprised myself,and remember,I had three superb dedicated lines,and went through a good amount of passive filter/conditioners too.
One thing though....Now that I have become SO smitten,with an area of the hobby that I really knew little about(thinking passive,non-balanced or regenerated devices were enough),I have "gone to town" trying to gain as much info as possible,in an effort to truly get a grip on this stuff.For now,even with some of the newer hoity toity regenerators about to come out,there is still the issue of heat,AND do you really want to pull ALL of the system's power from one wall outlet(even the wiring,in the wall can limit power,and add resistence,so I've read).One reason why I split up my front end and amp electrical sources.
Yet,that being said(and no guarantee of being an issue for many)based on what I have read,recently,I would love to run my system on an Exact Power Ep-15a,coupled with the NEW Exact Power Ultra Clean unit!!Though pricey,it is less money than many of the high quality cartridges so many of us talk about,and with very little heat dissapation,AND balanced,essentially regenerated power,the whole system can be run.TO THE NINES!!I can only imagine how great an improvement this configuration can make.There is a new unit,sold by Bryston(the Torus) which has HUGE oversized transformers,made by Plitron,which does NOT regenerate,yet is balanced,and probably stores a TON of energy.It is supposed to be fantastic!Three thousand US dollars.This is a nice "one box" alternative to the magnificent "Exact Power EP-15a/Ultra Clean" two box set-up,and cheaper than that combo.Yet,so few advanced hobbyists are actually aware of this aspect of line maintenance.I was not,and have some very high brow friends who would rather eat nails,than put anything between their components,and their "dirty" outlets.
But they have no problems upgrading to four to five thousand dollar cartridges,or spending big bucks for great NOS tubes.BTW,if I had not already bought my P-500,my tastes would run to the Exact Power combo.But it's too late now.I saved alot of money,but when it comes to this hobby,I usually opt for the better configured product.Too bad I was clueless,only two weeks ago!
Best!