Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?

I said there are no patent holders on First Order Crossovers, not 'any crossovers', and I didn't mention the Infinite Slope or Ray's special, relatively new crossover, as I recall--the issue at hand though, isn't that no one can patent them, its just that one infinitessimal change makes enforcing the intent of the patent impossible. Jim Thiel who had not patented anything up through 1999 when I worked for him, said, and I am recanting his words to me, as to the efficacy of patenting what I thought were some great ideas. It simply isn't realistic to patent certain items which are replicated with such frequency and similarity, in which changes of small measure destroy your case in court.(Not to mention the cost of enforcing, and protecting your patent.) I do notice from his web site that he has a patent pending re his SmartSub.(So all things change in time.)
The comments I made about first orders sounding 'bright' were, in this context, probably more regarding THIEL. Vandersteen is not only, not bright, many people find it lacking in what they call fine detail. I say they sound rather neutral and pleasant. One designer I was roaming the CES show with when it was still in Chicago, so an Ice Age ago, said upon hearing the latest Vandersteen, "Typical Richard design, not bad, won't offend anyone, but it lacks enough detail to make it interesting."
I have a wide berth of listening experiences, having visited about 100 stores across the United States while working as Director of Sales for THIEL, owning a retail store for 12 years, and attending every CES for many years; and my experience was that MANY 1st orders sound odd, and as Joseph of Joseph Audio was pointing out after my post, Jim is the most talented or advanced of the known designers employing first orders, and that the issues surrounding that design are, at least to him the same as to me. "Sit in the right place, eliminate room reflections, and play them at a moderate level." (I paraphrased to save time.)
What I hear, (and I don't expect you to hear the same thing by the way) is that the sounds emanating from the drivers well out of the dominant sound (frequency) range, sound odd, and amusical, creating a sound which is foreign, (to me) from the orignal and or intended sound.
Jim Thiel, insofar as I know, still thinks that all speakers should go 'flat' to 20Khz, it's just that most designs don't achieve that goal.But the perceived 'brightness' that people carp about with THIEL's aren't near the 20Khz region anyway, more like the 4 to 8Khz regions.
I hope this clarifies what I meant in my previous comments.

I'm unsure if we have trolls in this thread. Lrsky used to work for Thiel, goes through an attack on first order crossovers, then says he likes Fried speakers, which are first order. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, along with his rank ignorance on the patent issues. Josephaud then offers highly damning praise to Thiel speakers, thus offending them and Roy Johnson (decidedly not "the only manufacturer who really implements low order crossovers properly",) whose participation here is far beyond that of others in terms of technical information.

>I said there are no patent holders on First Order Crossovers

This is not what you said. What you said is right in the thread, and I quoted it. Go read it again. At any rate, your incorrect claim doesn't apply anyway, since the Kaminsky crossover I referenced is not first order. So sorry for your multiple confusions.

I didn't read the rest of your post.

Two things really, Suits me. Fried yelled at me constantly about THIEL speakers and their damnable first order crossovers. He did not use a straight 6db per octave crossover as proven on his archived information which I would be glad to send to you.
Second, I am sure, and I apologize that I misspoke about the Patent--what I should have said is, if there are any active patents on first orders, (the subject here) they are not being inforced, due to the issues you chose not to read.
Let's be friends, in the spirit of Bud, one of the industry giants. His spirit is alive in all of his products, that's for sure. And boy did he hate a true first order. My wife would laugh at me, as I would hold the phone away from my ear, as he would yell about the 'evil' of that kind of crossover. "They don't work, Goddamnit", as I recall. He was a hoot, who I will surely miss.
Friends, I hope...
BTW he used a first order on the bass, and a third on the mid treble, as I recall.

In response to the above, in Richard Hardesty's "Audio Perfectionist Journal Watchdog list," a letter was posted by Bud Fried that was aimed at JA in Stereophile for stating that time and phase were unimportant. He went own with an explanation and then concluded by saying "I think someday ALL speakers will be time and phase coherent." I don't remember wether it was actually published or not but it does seem to be in direct contrast to the statemnt(s) made above. Now, did he have a change of heart in his old age, was he BS'ing JA or what's the deal here?
At any rate, it's nice to know that Richard Vandersteen is a second rate designer of time and phase coherent speakers. I feel somewhat disappointed that I and hundreds of thousands of others have put up with a rolled off speaker lacking in resolution and of questionable design. I guess I could call him tomorrow and ask for my money back. Of course he then would ask why and I would have to tell him that based on Jeff Joseph and some other fellow who has speakers coming out are the only ones who know how to make a speaker correctly. He would then ask where I saw this and I would say on 'Audiogon." When he got through laughing, he would probably tell me to kiss his ass!