Was it, the guy who opened the equipment switching company? BTW 1998 was 22 years after THIEL started. |
Two things really, Suits me. Fried yelled at me constantly about THIEL speakers and their damnable first order crossovers. He did not use a straight 6db per octave crossover as proven on his archived information which I would be glad to send to you.
Second, I am sure, and I apologize that I misspoke about the Patent--what I should have said is, if there are any active patents on first orders, (the subject here) they are not being inforced, due to the issues you chose not to read.
Let's be friends, in the spirit of Bud, one of the industry giants. His spirit is alive in all of his products, that's for sure. And boy did he hate a true first order. My wife would laugh at me, as I would hold the phone away from my ear, as he would yell about the 'evil' of that kind of crossover. "They don't work, Goddamnit", as I recall. He was a hoot, who I will surely miss.
Friends, I hope...
BTW he used a first order on the bass, and a third on the mid treble, as I recall. |
First order crossovers, 6 db per octave, are the only one's which 'supposedly' offer the least phase shift, that is energy storage, and shift from one driver to the next.
The issue at hand is the enormous amount of work that each driver, since it rolls in and rolls out at 6 db per octave, has to operate over too wide of a frequency bandwidth,causing notable limitations in dynamics , or distortions which are unacceptably high.
When I worked for THIEL Jim Thiel would attempt to compensate (in part) by using special pole piece which allowed for linear treatment of the magnetic field over the coil in the driver throughout its proposed excursion, since that excursion was by necessity very long throw. This is like saying the sky is blue, because the ocean is too. It is a self defeating, and repeating argument, and certainly a condrum for designers who chose to use this cross over design.
Some designers, feel that first order crossovers place too many negatives in the picture for a natural and relaxed sound; not to mention that the lobing effects of the drivers at various distances (you do the math) causes frequency anomolies, such as suck outs and the inverse, causing room reflexions which look nothing like the output at the speaker. That may sound benign, but imagine, every echo and room reflexion sounding different than the signal at 8 feet, or at your listening position, this causes for a confused signal to the listener. So, some question, "what if a combination of slopes could create a sound"... that, at the listener and throughout the room, are close to identical as the actual measured output of the speaker; i.e. no lobing issues, and no tweeter having to operate like this, in this scenario. Using a 3K crossover point as many do, (too high in my opinion) but in that instance, the driver is down 6db at 1500Hz, then 12db @750Hz, 18db @375. (It's after midnight don't check the math with a calculator PLEASE) So significant midrange information is coming from a (generally 1" dome). That, IMHO is too much to ask of a driver of that size and excursion potential. Plus, again the issue of the lobing, caused by sharing of common frequencies, with the mid range, which in turn is also, asked to put out vast quantities of bass, making enormous excursions. A recipe for disaster for the wrong driver.
This first order design is one of those engineering arguments which looks great on paper, but in practice faces significant challenges, and the creation of drivers which operate in a manner not generally available to them by dent of their very design, and the known limits of drivers, given the laws of physics.
Other solutions, other than phase coherence gained through first order networks, IMHO is the answer. But time and space don't allow for all to be said here. |
I don't understand your post. There is no 'patent holder' per se on cross overs; what 'site' are you refering to--and who charges a lot for their speakers?
Sorry, not being sarcastic maybe I'm just thick today, but I really don't understand your comment/question.
Please clarify. |
It's odd that Bud Fried, (who I had the pleasure of knowing) is part of this conversation, and as Lincoln might have said, "it is altogether fitting and proper..."
Bud Fried's TL series made be become an audiophile back in the early 1980's. I fell in love then, with the, almost polar opposite, THIEL, and met, eventually worked for Jim Thiel. The one undeniable comment about Fried, or IMF as they were after the first split, (women, you know)--were the most 'musical' speaker around. They had the magic, and people didn't talk about 1st order, or this and that, they were too busy playing music to talk about it.
Plus, with no 'time alignment' they imaged wonderfully.
But, and this is not sentimental fluff, the music came out of the boxes just like it's supposed to.
I guess, Fried more than any other product was my inspiration for my speakers, (to be released, God help us soon). I just tried my best to make them sound like music. Forget the popular jargon, and make them sound like something that makes you want to sit 'all the way through an album', and not get up and change the record or disc, because it sounds to 'bright' or amusical.
An acquaintence came by during my final voicing, and said, (this is from the heart, not a commercial) 'your speakers make me want to listen to music again." Honest to God, a comment like that will put tears in your eyes.
I think about Bud, (and Jim) and their influence as opposite as they were, and thank them both, because without either, the industry would be poorer.
Sorry for the melodrama, but I mean every word.
Larry |
Actually, I WOULD expect the 'forward' or brightness from a first order design. It's almost a sure bet that everyone who's heard THIEL would agree that they sound forward in the high frequencies. My speakers measure flat, (inasmuch as any can or will) yet the tweeter is invisible to the ear; this has the effect of making fatigue a virtual non factor. Plus older recordings, some of the sixties abortions which sound so awful, (this was the moment when engineers found the eq switch, I like to say), and they sound different than contemporary, but listenable, instead of ear splitting.
The principal design behind any speaker, should be fidelity, that is the output should equal the input, and here we're walking a fine line. A quarter of a db across a broad enough bandwidth, makes all the difference in the world tonally.
I theorize that the forwardness comes from the rather 'odd' sounds created by the multiple bandwidths covered by the drivers-- and how tonally mismatched they are in reproducing what should be similar sounds. That 'blend' of sounds creates a secondary sound, amusical to me, which I find offensive, and 'bright' as described by
Opalchip, even though he surmised that first order 'would not' sound bright.
This is based on listening to the contribution of the drivers individually, as they 'try' to play frequencies, which reside normally, well out of their range.
Theory, not scientific fact, but my ears hear the composite of each individual driver, and the sound is abberational. |
Dear Josephaud- with my unbridled respect for you, I hubly accept this complement.
Thanks, and I look forward to seeing you again soon, (perhaps in Vegas.) |
I said there are no patent holders on First Order Crossovers, not 'any crossovers', and I didn't mention the Infinite Slope or Ray's special, relatively new crossover, as I recall--the issue at hand though, isn't that no one can patent them, its just that one infinitessimal change makes enforcing the intent of the patent impossible. Jim Thiel who had not patented anything up through 1999 when I worked for him, said, and I am recanting his words to me, as to the efficacy of patenting what I thought were some great ideas. It simply isn't realistic to patent certain items which are replicated with such frequency and similarity, in which changes of small measure destroy your case in court.(Not to mention the cost of enforcing, and protecting your patent.) I do notice from his web site that he has a patent pending re his SmartSub.(So all things change in time.)
The comments I made about first orders sounding 'bright' were, in this context, probably more regarding THIEL. Vandersteen is not only, not bright, many people find it lacking in what they call fine detail. I say they sound rather neutral and pleasant. One designer I was roaming the CES show with when it was still in Chicago, so an Ice Age ago, said upon hearing the latest Vandersteen, "Typical Richard design, not bad, won't offend anyone, but it lacks enough detail to make it interesting."
I have a wide berth of listening experiences, having visited about 100 stores across the United States while working as Director of Sales for THIEL, owning a retail store for 12 years, and attending every CES for many years; and my experience was that MANY 1st orders sound odd, and as Joseph of Joseph Audio was pointing out after my post, Jim is the most talented or advanced of the known designers employing first orders, and that the issues surrounding that design are, at least to him the same as to me. "Sit in the right place, eliminate room reflections, and play them at a moderate level." (I paraphrased to save time.)
What I hear, (and I don't expect you to hear the same thing by the way) is that the sounds emanating from the drivers well out of the dominant sound (frequency) range, sound odd, and amusical, creating a sound which is foreign, (to me) from the orignal and or intended sound.
Jim Thiel, insofar as I know, still thinks that all speakers should go 'flat' to 20Khz, it's just that most designs don't achieve that goal.But the perceived 'brightness' that people carp about with THIEL's aren't near the 20Khz region anyway, more like the 4 to 8Khz regions.
I hope this clarifies what I meant in my previous comments. |
My exact comments regarding my opinion of Vandersteen was, that, " I say they sound rather neutral and pleasant."
As far as coherence, the initial thought of the discussion, has been lost. It had to do with Suits Me stating that "then says he likes Fried speakers, which are first order."
If one goes to Frieds stated work and crossovers on certain products, which I just referenced tonight, he used 3 db per octave slopes on the woofer, then 18 db per octave, which is third order cross over on mids and tweets.
This has turned into a hornets nest of confusion, for which I can take some credit probably. But Fried, most definitely was NOT a proponent of true first order networks as described as 6 db per octave, the proof of which is listed with his archival work, and my personal conversations with him, in which he found that to be unacceptable, in the design of loudspeakers.
I have nothing but profound respect for Rich Vandersteen, and what was said in my quote was by someone I was with. Truthfully I probably shouldn't have repeated it, other than to point out that his speakers are NOT forward sounding as are the THIEL's.
The 'some guy' who has speakers coming to market is me, Larry Staples, who studied under Jim Thiel, and Albert Von Schweikert, and has 25 years invested in the industry.
It takes thick skin to take a stand on these, supposedly hobbiest friendly sites. If I offend anyone by recanting past experiences I am profoundly apologetic. I found Bud Fried to be passionate, and brilliant. He was a grad of Princeton as I recall, and a fantastic representative of the field of audio, as is Mr. Vandersteen.
We all have disperate ideas on what works in design. Nobody has all the answers. I am struggling to make my product come to market and only hope to have a fraction of the success that Bud and Rich Vandersteen, and Jim Thiel, as well as the others who have contributed so much.
My speakers are a tribute to design by listening, not intellectualizing what 'should work'. I voiced my product, making it sound as I personally think real music sounds like. Some will like it others won't. Be aware that I am only ATTEMPTING to add to the science and art of building speakers.
Please, no one, take offense at any misspoken words.
Best,
Larry R. Staples
LSA Group
President |
Trelja long time no write.
Yes, Bud was a legend, and old time, old fashioned, 'tell it like it is, kind of guy.
Last night when I started writing about how much I loved his speakers, (and owned the ALS30's, I think they were called though my heart was with the TL 50's at the outlandish cost of, I think $2500. in 1978) it was frankly before my techno awareness. So when I was properly upbraided for liking him, thinking his work and Jim's were (no pun) polar opposites, my memory kept telling me that he was not a first order guy.
Then when someone wrote that note about me liking him, I had to go, both to my memories of our many conversations, then to the archives, and research his work.
There, in what appears to be old Royal typewriter print,
gotta love the days before computers, was the description of his design. I mispoke, (it was after midnite and I was tired, 6db in the bass, though above I mistakenly said 3db,
anyway, then 18 db per octave in the mid/tweet crossover.
Heck, I should have remembered, as I mentioned above, he was a hoot. When the G2A(?) came out to good press, he would call me weekly and raise holy hell with me for selling THIEL's CS3. And his language, Hell I thought I knew all the words, he must have visited the Profanity 101 Classes at Princeton. HA!!! He was the most loveable curmudgen.
I remember a few years later seeing him in Chicago, the home of the Consumer Electronics Show for years; I saw him, and as I recall he had had heart bypass surgery--that must have been in 1986? I remember, when we shook hands, I was alarmed at how thin, and cold his hands were; but it did not alter his enthusiasm or excitement for life and audio.
I miss him already. God, what and influence. I, without being corney bow at the altar of he and Jim THIEL, Joseph Audio, (hence my shock and pleasure when he agreed with my thoughts on crossovers). My only shock was when someone took umbridge at his comment about THIEL. It was a complement to Jim's genius, and as is often the case on these hallowed threads, someone thought Joseph was being negative about him. Shame, because he was expressing true admiration, just noting his shared view of a design, certainly not Jim, another, later day legend.
And (long winded here), Jim Thiel, is just as wonderful a person to work for as one might imagine. Always gentle, and kind, and hard working, the true American dream--from a dirt floor garage start, to an international company.
Thanks for the memo, and kind words. The audio business is better for Bud, Jim, Rich Vandersteen, Joseph, Gayle Sanders, Roger West, and(another mentor) Albert Von Schweikert. Thanks for them and many I have forgotten.
(Oh God, how could I forget Peter Snell, one of Jim's good friends, who died at, I think 37--a genius snatched from audio all too soon.
God Bless Bud!!! |
Sorry Bud, what a disgrace to accuse him of graduating from Princeton. LOL! Actually, it was so long ago, I figured I had a fifty fifty shot.
Again, what a mind, what a guy. Legends like him will last forever.
Years after I opened my store, a guy I had been trying to THIEL-ize, came in, and had found either the TL 50's or the Studio Monitors. They were magnificent. Music rolled out in the bottom like almost no other. Wow.
Transmission lines don't work according to some, who say the laws of physics, and length of the bass wave preclude it- I say, TELL THAT TO THE WONDERFUL BASS ROLLING OUT OF THEM ! |
I happened to hear the Kimber crossover, in what I thought, was 'his' speaker(?), and it sounds like "no crossover at all", the ultimate compliment. Clean clear and without that 'too many crossover parts' haze, created by overzealous engineers who try too hard IMHO to 'shape' the sound.
Wow, it was great, Kudos to Ray once again! |
Suits Me, one of YOUR most obvious and glaring errors, not only proven by my many conversations with him, but archival works available to anyone who wants to, or takes the time to, or has the ability to, understand them.
You wrote, as cut from the thread, and I will file it for future information about you and your business endeavors.
>After this and other long, fact filled threads on the topic, we still don't know that Fried did not and doesn't make time aligned speakers.
He believed in first order series crossovers.<
Guess we all make mistakes, yet most of us are more gracious about pointing them out to others than you.
I have really tried to remain civil with a person who has no interest in doing so. God I hate threads that break down into feces throwing like this, but really, how many times can one person apologize? Sorry G you were right this was headed for disaster with a guy like this.... |
The unit I heard, as I recall, did not have any caps, so it must have been an early version. I do remember the guy, Our tech, waxing over the crossover, talking about its absence of coloration, and again, IF I RECALL, caps.
It was, nevertheless, glorious in it's clear simplicity, as if nothing was between you and the music.
I remember hearing the Jura Rega, commenting on how it sounded, flaws notwithstanding, as if there was no crossover.
Thanks Tom. |
