Clearaudio Double Smart Matrix or Loricraft PRC4

Markd51, one last point since you brought it up. the last time I was at lloyds he was using steam and loving it in conjunction with his cleaning product. There is nothing wrong with the VPI cleaner. it is (very)loud, but it works good enough with steam. I would own the VPI over the PRC4. the cost of an item is not directly connected with how good it functions or preforms. so your referance to the cost of a steamer has no "value". do as you wish, but if your not using steam it aint kleen.

I'd like commenting again. Lloyd possibly was conducting some curious tests that day, and I would assume that if the Prelude Cleaning System is so good, as everyone claims it is, one wouldn't find a need to resort to steam.

Not in any way berating Prelude, because if what I was using currently became no longer available, the Prelude System would be the one I would most likely turn to-consider. Only possibly dislike I might find with the products, is the need to pre-mix batches of the Enzyme Cleaner.

I'm not here to hype any particular product, but with the products I've been using, I have found no need to resort to the Steamers. One might argue, saying, "well that's because my system isn't high quality-resolving enough to hear the differences". I believe it certainly is, and I don't think one will absolutely need to spring $40K on a Table to clearly know without a doubt, the records are perfectly clean.

Although the ZYX Airy 3X Cartridge is not what I call a "high resolution click+pop finder", as it is a cartridge that plays very quiet in the groove.

I've seen how steam "tacos' records, and there's enough of this on youtube to see such, as when the steam is applied, the record warps crazily. Yes, that goes away once the steamer is pulled away, and the record is left to cool, but to what degree it then returns to its fully original state before such an assault I'm sure is not 100%.

Since the dawn of time with vinyl, it always has been a no no leaving vinyl in a hot car, etc. And that's one good argument as to why I would not wish to create a self made enviornment of hea destruction for my treasured vinyl.

I believe one day, someone will show visually, the effects at the miscroscopic level, before, and after, the evidence of what steam (I prefer to call it hot water) does to the groove.

I'm a firm believer, that if the cleaners that are used are properly designed, in that they do the job they supposed to do, which is detach the contaminants that are found in the groove, and place them into the aqueous solution, so that the vacuum can come along and remove them, then the job is essentially correctly accomplished.

As well, that no residues are left behind due to an inefficient vacuum system, or that the vinyl was damaged by the specific components of a cleaner system. That any residues left behind in the groove, are just another type of contaminant left behind for the Stylus, (and the Ear)

I know there's people here who have a better knack of explaining the sciences involved, and putting them to type better than I. I don't exactly consider myself a William Shakespeare, or someone like Justin_Time when it comes to writing.

Again, do use what you feel is best for you. I am well aware how such topics have controversy about methods-cleaners.

I will lastly say, that common sense causes me to believe that a $500 RCM with the best cleaners, and proper techniques will give head and shoulders better results versus an RCM costing 10 times the price but with inefficient cleaners, rinses, and/or poor technique. Mark

Just for the record, Lloyd Walker experimented with steam for all of about 15 minutes. His 4 step product functions just fine, thank you very much, without steam. He tried steam - it was not the answer.

I would Imagine if Lloyd Walker trusted in such as steam cleaning (which IMO is a misnomer, it's actually hot water) that he would endorse such, and market such to compliment his Prelude System.

It's a shame in a way that manufacturers as such cannot participate in these forums, as we could then get accurate-truthful, and useable information straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

About Lloyd, I don't personally know the man, but I'm quite certain Walker Prelude wasn't originally concocted on Lloyd's Kitchen Table, nor is the final cleaning formulas manufactured in Lloyd's Kitchen Sink.

He no doubt went the full monty, with degreed chemists, testing, analyzation, testing again, on, and on, till his formulas were perfected, and acceptable for marketing.

I assume that after use of his products, that nothing further needs to be done to the vinyl in a near future tense. Just the dusting, and yes, in time vinyl does need to be recleaned. One cleaning, no matter what the product doesn't insure that the record is now going to stay pristine clean for the rest of its usable life. Mark

IME, steaming can be an extremely important and valuable step in a cleaning regimen and I do it regularly. It's particularly effective with really dirty records.

I'm not fond of steamers like the Mapleshade which concentrate the steam in a very small area, favoring a steamer which provides a much more diffuse distribution. I never have a record warping while steaming and wouldn't advocate doing so.

I see no reason for any of the marketers of commercial record cleaning products to endorse steaming as there is really nothing in it for them and it would, in a sense, shed a somewhat negative light on the efficacy of their products.

I'm grateful that companies and people like RRL, Disc Doctor, Audio Intelligent and Lloyd Walker have come up with effective cleaning products (especially their first stage cleaning products) but I'm a lot less grateful that they sell ultrapure water (which is every bit as important, if not moreso, than the first stage of cleaning whether it be surfactant or enzyme based) for five to eight times the price (Lloyd Walker's price) to gullible audiophiles who could buy it from any scientific supply house at pennies on the dollar.

If Lloyd's markup on his tables resembles anything like his markup on his water he must be very comfortable.