Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Am I the only one who has read the reviews of the big SME tables that almost uniformly say that they are dry and uninvolving?

Rick is obviously a well healed and experienced audiophile and I respect his opinion in the context of his post but I dont see the reason to go off in a huff. He likes what he likes but that doesn't mean that he is correct - audiophile detail vs wooly musicality... How should systems sound? Like you are sitting on the bandstand or in row "m".

Anyhow it must have killed Jean to kowtow in print as much as he did :) Good for character building :)

Mike

Mgreene, I pointed that out, too. In at least one or maybe two reviews of the SME30 that I recall, the reviewer found it to be very neutral, almost to a fault. The fault line lies near to the phrases "dry" and "uninvolving". But lets remember that these adjectives were used in relation to other state of the art tables or to the writers' favorite table, usually high end, too. And they were used to describe relative qualities, not absolutes. So, I think there are elements of LP reproduction that you and I would like better about the Lenco as compared to the SME, but overall it is certainly not surprising that the SME30 would be superior. As Jean himself has noted, we are only beginning to see the potential of idler drive fully realized. I haven't heard Mosin's latest creation, but I will wager that it would more than challenge the SME30. OTOH, it may cost as much.

Hi all, just to correct certain things, the high frequencies were, as Rick noted, severely rolled-off. I don't believe this was due to the idler mechanism (which flipped and flopped like a drunken sailor as the mechanism simply didn't fit this particular Lenco, coming from another [I had assumed these were all drop-in replacements and until the Shootout, considering how good it was anyway, I never noticed]), but instead more a cable issue. The Clearaudio's (my favourite cartridge of all time, and according to Rick I should never even consider selling it, so an unexpected benefit of this Shootout as well) accompanying graph shows it drops off at 14K, but since most men over 30 have roll-offs at about 13K, this shouldn't make much of a difference. The highs did improve, it seemed to both of us, when I swapped to the JMW, but the cable I made for the JMW was a BIG improvement over the cable I had to concoct for the SME, as well, being direct from the RCAs at one end to the Neutriks at the other. And perhaps switching to Mogamis, as I was considering, or something other than "warm-sounding" Cardas cable, would have made even more of a difference.

Anyway, I think this high-frequency roll-off did much too much to colour the outcome, had they been there, then, in terms of neutrality, the contest would have been much closer. But, the Lenco produced, as-was, only the lowest bass to the lower highs, and so sounded much "warmer" than it should have. So let's not make too much of this warmth and musicality issue (at least for now): in terms of absolute information-retrieval, i.e. raw detail, the two 'tables were actually very close within the frequency range the Lenco did reproduce; and in terms of "ordinary" overall dynamics (I mean apart from the "jumping out" percusssion/palpability factor of the Lenco) the two were actually quite close again. It wasn't a night-and-day slaughter of the SME by the Lenco in this respect, more a matter of degree (significant degree, but still degree). I was frankly surprised by how dynamic and exciting the SME really was. I was also frankly surprised by how deep and powerful the bass was. From the lowest bass through the midrange through to the lower high frequencies, the two 'tables were, in overall audiophile terms (detail, imaging, placement, dynamics, etc.), quite close. So, yes, the Lenco IS more involving, more exciting, and so forth, but don't assume it is far behind the SME 30 in terms of information-extraction (we had to switch back and forth, back and forth, in order to hear what each 'table was picking up and how they presented it, in order to hear what each was doing and judge which was correct, they were so close), this was mostly due to the missing high frequencies which, being simply not present on the Lenco, meant the SME simply picked up some detail, and fleshed-out/brought forward other detail, up here which the Lenco did not. Who knows what the JMW/Concerto would have done, and with better cable?

On the other hand, the SME 30 was powerful, dynamic, with deep controlled bass, in these areas quite close to the Lenco (and in the matter of bass, at least with the SME IV/Concerto combo, its equal, superiority was recording-dependent according to my ears), and not what I was expecting from the reviews I read and the auditioning I did of a SME 20. The Lenco furthered these dynamics somewhat, and added superior timing to my ears. The Concerto is considered extremely musical according to the reviews, and according to my ears is simply the best I have ever heard in this respect, and extraordinary in terms of detail, dynamics, and all the rest. I LOVE it. Perhaps the Concerto was giving the Lenco a further advantage in terms of musicality as well. Maybe switching the Concerto to the SME would have brought the SME some needed PRaT and gestalt, and switching the Benz LP to the Lenco would have brought the Lenco further neutrality, thus bringing the two 'tables closer together in terms of musicality - and neutrality - as well.

Anyway, both these 'tables were superb, the experience was amazing, and I thank Rick again for his time and hospitality. For those who are price-conscious, I suggest you don't get too upset the Lenco is SO cheap, the REAL reason idlers stopped being manufactured is that they were simply too expensive to manufacture (they switched to belt-drive because this was cheap and easy to manufacture). The companies - like Lenco - which produced these at the time were HUGE (LP was king and EVERYONE had an LP spinner), with huge R & D resources, and all was manufactured in-house. How much would it cost to design and produce a Lenco from scratch today? So yes, the Lenco can be picked up for $200 today, but that's used, on eBay, today, and even this price has more to do with perception (so-so) than reality (incredible).

Anyway, have fun all, back to my Concerto!!

Hello all;

I agree with Mgreen, Lewm & Jean on a number of points.
Firstly, the current audio dogma that quality is proportional to price is incorrect. This point has been propagated by the Audio press. The are many examples of where a DIY audiophiles creating pieces of audio equipment for low cost that supersedes production pieces costing multiple fold. So, why is it so hard to believe that this could happen with turntables. Also the 30k SME costs more like 15-18K wholesale, and 7-8K to produce from the manufacturer. So the difference in prices between a 2K Lenco & a 7-8K SME are not are large as they look on paper.

As Lewm mentioned, the only way to determine the effect of the table on the sound characteristic is to keep all other variables constant and just change the Table.

I do not agree that absolute neutrality makes a turntable great. But again this is person dependant. Obviously Rick deems neutrality to be his priority, in which case the SME maybe his ultimate turntable. But, one can not say that because a piece of equipment is "colored" is not top class. Who generates the rules that neutral is the pinnacle & colored is not? Who is to say that something is colored? The answer is each of us does!! I for instance do not assess a piece of equipment as neutral or not neutral, but I look for the equipment to be musical. As close to the live music as possible. If this means colored then so be it.

Further, if one follows the magazines there top classes of audio equipment are filled with varying flavors ( warm, neutral, cold/dark) sounding equipment. So how can 2 pieces of equipment that are on polar opposites of a spectrum both be on a Class A list? Easily, because different reviewers have varying tastes.

I am not sure Why Rick became upset with this discussion. Audio like so many other topics are always full of debate & opinion. That’s what makes each of us different. It is our ability to process information and come up with varied answers. This does not make one person right or wrong, it is all a matter of perspective.

Regards;
Opus

The subjective loggerheads of neutrality versus musicality I suspect lies mostly, but not entirely, outside of the domain of turntable as appliance – that part starting from the stylus on back. In this, I’m pretty much in agreement with Lewm. But even the turntable as appliance – the drive train that sets the speed and support of the vinyl spinning under the diamond, can play a great part in presentation. Without belaboring all that we’ve come to know, the Lenco as appliance, brings all to the table that anyone would want of a drive train – a heavy platter acting as stable flywheel, cranked by a powerful, but quiet motor. You only have to think of the Technics SP-10 with it phase servo dc motor cranking a near 7 lb. platter, the Garrard 301, and the Teres heavyweights to know this is a given and very desirable aspect of what a turntable should be as an appliance. And the Lenco comes to play in this same league. What we do in terms of coupling and isolation only improves the Lenco platform.
Now what we mount as the retriever combo over this superb spinning base, that is the black arts & craft end of the deal. That tiny microphone on a boom comes in many more flavors than Baskin & Robbins, all trying to cant for every angle in the approximation game.
After reading this head-to-head between the Jean’s Lenco and Richard’s SME, I wondered where this whole Musical/Neutral issue would have landed had Jean brought his RS Labs RS-A1 to the meet. I had the good fortune of listening to this tonearm on Jean’s system about 18 months ago. (By the way, it’s currently getting some good play over at Lenco Lovers with Ian’s acquisition of one).
This rickety, physics-defying contraption was outfitted with a Denon 103(E) – or was it the Decca? At any rate, the speed of the transients in play, coupled with a forward front sound, and utter black background had me wondering where Jean’s SACD player was hiding for this simulcast – it was that unvinyl-like. Was this neutrality over musicality or colouration? I’m not sure. I suspect it was a potpourri of a lot of subjective elements that culminated in a rendition that can only be expressed in a greater subjectivism - “stunning”.
A bit later, Jean popped in his beloved Grado Platinum Woody into a Moerch and we we’re back into obvious phono staging – lush and warm with slamming bass.
This is not all to maximize the importance of the retriever at the expense of the turntable as appliance, but to state that the Lenco, “dressed up to the nines”, can come close to being all things to all people packing various armaments.

- Mario