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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Well Rob I certainly wouldn't disagree with your comment that the differences in 1k budget DACs would compare to differences in say speakers. We have been around on this before and I certainly appreciate you taking the time on various threads to give your impressions based on your listening experiences. What caught my eye is the following in your opening:

"The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units!"

So far as the Rega and ARC units are concerned I can't comment but with regard to the other two units my point is I can now IMMEDIATELY hear the differences, within 10 seconds, so can my friend, there is no struggle at all. Of course the differences will be less apparent depending on the music but there is a difference in tonal balance that is quite apparent to me. Again, I do have a clear preference as it seems you have a preference for the Rega over the other three. My second choice in my stable is the Havana which clearly isn't as detailed but has that image density and weight that I hear in the Wyred. Of course others may come to a different conclusion as to which they might prefer as is the case in all things audio. We pay for the subtle differences, often times a lot more than a budget DAC costs. To my ears the differences are less subtle for the two in question than your impressions and so, here I am again to offer another viewpoint. I only wish I could hear the components in question in your set-up and you hear mine. Maybe at that point we would be in agreement? :) Cheers!
chesebert
67 posts
 
I am going to break down my own experience over the years into DAC quality vs $ and note my observed threshhold for each level of sound quality (highly subjective and based on my own system or system I am familiar with)

<$2000 - obvious shortcoming in one or more areas (tried a bunch, benchmark, lavry, stello, dacmagic, bunch Chinese-made crap, etc)

$2000 < $10,000 - no obvious shortcomings, generally sounds pleaseant. However, the music does not sound real. Sometime you are trading detail for musicality, focus and solidity for wide-deep soundstage, holographic imaging for intimacy, etc. (also tried a bunch, ECD-1, BADA, Ayre C5XeMP (sub for QB-9), Bricasti, Akurate DS, Transporter (this I have), etc)

> $10,000 - now we are talking! generally superb sounding, not really trading any aspect of sound production, some DACs are voiced differently than others. Sound at this level generally sound real, musical, with all the detail, but presented in a natural and real way. (tried some, Esoteric K-01/2, PD MPS5, Klimax DS (I have this), dCS Puccini/uclock, Orpheus Lab OneSE, etc)

To OP, if all you do is dither around $1k stuff, I am not suprised you find no difference among DACs - perhaps you do get what you pay for?
jult52
155 posts
 
Chesebert

"To OP, if all you do is dither around $1k stuff, I am not suprised you find no difference among DACs - perhaps you do get what you pay for?"

This is earth calling. Your Rolls-Royce has been hand serviced and waxed and is ready for your manservant to pick it up.
robbob OP
273 posts
 
I'm sorry...did someone just mention a DAC costing 10K is needed for "real sound?"

That's pretty funny! I've heard systems in the 70-80K range and never once did I hear one that actually sounded real, and they had turntables that were better than any DAC made today...and probably tomorrow.

I've heard some pricey DACs and I'm sticking to my story...buy a good one and spend your money and energy on speakers, amps and pre-amps. BTW, the Rega DAC did just fine against the much more expensive and well reviewed ARC dac. Why is that?

10K for a DAC? I own and sail a sailing yacht, which is a fairly useless indulgence, but 10K for a DAC would be a sure sign of my mental decline in the eyes of many.
And they'd be right!

;-)

Rob
chesebert
67 posts
 
Assuming you are not trolling. For someone who had spent few hundred thousand on a yacht you can just buy a sota player and live with it for a year (I would recommend pd mps5 or klimax ds/1, should go well with your Merlin ) You can always sell and go back to rega in a year if you want.

20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it as another watch or a handbag for your wife.
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