The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

Well then I guess I'm going to have to try the Rega just for the hell of it all to see how what you describe will play out in my rig, really curious now. Interestingly it isn't the extra detail of the Wyred that jumps out at me over say the Oppo or the Plus, in that area there are more similarities, it is tonality and the natural flow of the music plus greater weight, notably brass and piano and of course the bass resolution and weight as well. Those are the obvious differences so clearly discernable a reason I find comments regarding it sounding "analytical" baffling and wonder if system differences are somehow coming into play. Is there anyone else out there that hears these differences? Is is no subtle thing to my ears. On another note the characteristics in the Plus with every premium tube, without the tube in the circuit does not CHANGE the leanness of the unit although I agree that the top end upper frequencies are quite exquisite which is what I was initially drawn to. It is the overall tonal balance of the design, it is just too lean for my tastes and system based on what I suspect a compromised power supply.

Well Rob, again we have to disagree on this one. I am going to give a different perspective. First off, my listening comparisons are over extended periods. As a matter of fact I still have the 3 DACs I have purchased over the past 11 months and also own the Oppo 95 which was purchased during that period. I have listened extensively to all of them in my system and one other system that is different than mine. There ARE differences. When doing a direct AB comparison the differences aren't as readily apparent but the CONCLUSIONS of those differences over extended listening, again two listeners two separate systems were the same and are now quite obvious, at least the DAC of preference, the Wyred over both the Oppo and the Minimax Plus all three using the same chip. The only thing lacking with the Havana is the detail of the other 3. Tonally it is more similar to the Wyred. What is important and was noted with particularly the OPPO, Wyred and EE Minimax Plus is that they require patience and time to break-in before doing any serious listening comparisons, this can't be overemphasized.

So while I do respect that you feel there are little differences between them and I would concur in a direct AB that this is true, if one is able, willing and inclined to do long term listening there should be a preference in a given system. It is quite clear to me which one is better to me, not just different but a better all around performer. I haven't heard all the DACs you mentioned so my comments are based on the 2 in your comparison that I have. Most importantly critical listening in a system to digest differences takes time. My initial impression of the Wyred is not even close to my impression of it now which was due to the break-in period required. Conversely my initial WOW impression of the Plus went in the opposite direction, go figure. I wonder how many people give up before they get a real handle on things? As a footnote I lent one of the DACs to another audiophile friend. He listened for over one month. I gave him absolutely no indication of my impressions of it just that I had purchased another DAC and he was free to listen for an extended period. When I talked to him about his impressions of it, he came to the same conclusion as both myself and my other audio friend that listened extensively to it,"detailed does nothing wrong that I can put my finger on but why is it so fatiguing?" I still don't have an answer other than I feel that tonally it is too light, lacking weight. I listened to it again last night after 2 months and the difference could be heard almost immediately, its that time thing and familiarity that it takes to make the right choice.

I agree with what audiooracle stated. I have what I consider a highly resolving system that has evolved over 12 years and been pretty much constant over the past 5 other than tweeks and vibration control experimentation. My friends system is also very familiar and has similarly evolved over the same period. Differences, if there are any, can be easily discerned. I would love to hear more but wouldn't you agree that four is enough if I am satisfied, at least for the moment?:) As further thought I would wonder now more than ever how much a system difference comes into play and how conclusions can be so different? Why collectively are three different listeners on this side in agreement on what we hear on two different yet familiar systems and others hear things so contrary. Is it taste or are the systems so different that the DACs in question complement one system over another?

The point I attemped to make, aside from subjective impressions is that there ARE clearly differences that I contend can be readily discerned in a substantive manner, in my example, by 2 different listeners in 2 separate systems with the same conclusion over EXTENDED listening. When familiarity with a component in a given system has been established it is easier to discern the differences and can be done so in much less time than say in an initial AB comparison. What does that tell me? Whether or not the differences are better or not is irrelevant for sure. What is relevant is that the conclusion is obvious which raises additional questions regarding system differences and taste perhaps but NOT in my opinion differences in the components. I am not trying to prove anything other than to offer a completely different and hopefully :) objective perspective and conclusion than the OP. I have been at this a while as well and my system and ears are in tune from extended familiarity with one another. I couldn't disagree with him more aside from my value judgement which is totally subjective and irrelevant for the sake of this discussion.

Well Rob I certainly wouldn't disagree with your comment that the differences in 1k budget DACs would compare to differences in say speakers. We have been around on this before and I certainly appreciate you taking the time on various threads to give your impressions based on your listening experiences. What caught my eye is the following in your opening:

"The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units!"

So far as the Rega and ARC units are concerned I can't comment but with regard to the other two units my point is I can now IMMEDIATELY hear the differences, within 10 seconds, so can my friend, there is no struggle at all. Of course the differences will be less apparent depending on the music but there is a difference in tonal balance that is quite apparent to me. Again, I do have a clear preference as it seems you have a preference for the Rega over the other three. My second choice in my stable is the Havana which clearly isn't as detailed but has that image density and weight that I hear in the Wyred. Of course others may come to a different conclusion as to which they might prefer as is the case in all things audio. We pay for the subtle differences, often times a lot more than a budget DAC costs. To my ears the differences are less subtle for the two in question than your impressions and so, here I am again to offer another viewpoint. I only wish I could hear the components in question in your set-up and you hear mine. Maybe at that point we would be in agreement? :) Cheers!