Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

People who actually understand measurements can tell quite a bit about how a product will sound.  The fact you can't doesn't change that.

 

You dont understand that a piece of gear with good specs does not  means that this piece will worl the same coupled to other pieces of gear and in different room...

This is why claiming that we can judge completely the sound quality of a piece of gear ONLY  with few electrical measures to verify his design on some aspects (not all of them ) is non sense or marketing publicity for an ideology or for a site who need badly some specific way to describe audio experience and reduce it to electrical design ...

A spec of light here :

This is where Amir is so completely wrong. We do not know how to measure the things in the audio chain which some of our ears perceive as the most vital in reproduction.

It is simple read a book about acoustics you will discover some or like me tune your own room .. 😊

Then if you do that you will discover the power of your own techno-cultism bias ...😉

This is what many audiophiles just seem to be utterly ignorant about: the power of bias.

@prof 

Amir did not do anything revolutionary by measuring cables to debunk the cable myth. That has been done since the 90s. There are some things that can be done with cables with regard to capacitance and materials like silver vs copper, etc. That Amir took the time to measure is no great feat. 

 

But if people want to decorate their stereos with beautiful cables. Then why not, if it makes them happy. I have a few fancy cables. I love the way they look. I can afford them. 

 

I do know this. Brick and Mortar stores have become few and far between. And they are an important resource. They move the goods and keep the industry alive. They educate. And they are a source for having a chance to listen before you buy. If selling fancy cables to their well heeled clients helps keep the doors open, then bring it on. 

I wrote about a specific cable to illustrate how measurements can speak to how something "sounds." Please read more carefully.

And yourself when you quoted me have you understand what i had written?

this is what i said, «For sure we can tell by measurements that certain sonic claims MAY BE false ( not are always false as you wrote) this does not means that all audible characteristics of sounds perceived meanings are measurable by few electrical tool ...» Do you get it ?

 

 

i did not contradict the usefulness of measure, i discarded your claim about their dogmatic use in all case as meaning that what is audible is always measured or measurable..

You accuse me of what you did : you misread my answer...😊

And sorry, beyond that I’m not too inclined to follow you down your rabbit holes. Been there, done that.

You are not ashamed to describe as "rabbit hole" my arguments which are grounded in many acoustics research papers and a book you had not even read ?

You think repeating mantra as biases, double blind test, measures of electrical specs of gear, etc is enough to hide your ignorance about acoustics experience ?

@botrytis I have no problem with Tekton. I wish them great success. I empathize with his complaint that a few people are making a name for themselves with petty and poorly informed reviews at the expense of a cottage industry that hangs by a thread. It's too easy to take down a company. If they are going to play that game, then they should be willing to accept the heat of the inevitable push back. 

Prof when 2 person discuss together one argument must be opposed by another arguments..

Then one must ground his argument in science facts ( research acoustic papers) not mantras about the debunking of cables with measuring tools..

No thinking about acoustic perception can be done if we dont define the acoustic context  and what is hearing...

Buying an electrical tool from Walmart is not an argument ... 😊

Now another article to educate ...and those who want to understand:

 

 

The Body-Image Theory of Sound: An Ecological Approach to Speech and Music

this article is free to read here :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327268_The_Body-Image_Theory_of_Sound_An_Ecological_Approach_to_Speech_and_Music


Abstract
The definition of sound in physics as vibrations in an elastic medium establishes a link between the sound source and the organism. Thus, it satisfies an essential psychophysical prerequisite for a theory of perception. However,
over the past 170 years since Ohm’s law (1843), and some 137 years since Helmholtz’s resonance theory (1877),psychoacoustic procedures founded on air vibration have shrouded music and speech in mystery. Ecological
theories have fallen short, not only of Gestalt invariance, but also of the link between the distal object and the organism. This paper approaches auditory analysis from the standpoint of sound production. It argues that
although air vibration produces sound, sound is not air vibration; and that exploitation of features of air vibration can hardly (if ever) lead to accurate understanding of the principle of the auditory mechanism in speech or music
perception. Evidence is provided in support of the definition of sound as the vibratory image of the sonorous body. It establishes isomorphism between characteristics of a sonorous body and auditory attributes of sound.
Wherefore, a body is different from the sound it produces in much the same way as steam is different from ice ─ two different forms of the same entity. The data under consideration offer succinct insights into the way the
auditory mechanism extracts from sound wave invariants for use in speech or music regardless of chaotic production and acoustic variability. Implications for future research in speech, music and all aspects of auditory analysis are discussed