Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?


After my Audio Science Review review forum, it became apparent that nearly the only way one can determine the measurements of an audio product is wait for a review on line or in a publication.  Most equipment is never reviewed or is given a subjective analysis rather than a measurement oriented review.  One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products. 

Manufacturers routinely give the performance characteristics of their products as Specifications.  Those are not test measurements.

I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any.  Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements.  Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I've searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.   Same is true for amps, pre-amps, DACs, transports, turntables, well you get the picture.  Do they have something to hide?   I doubt the good quality products have anything to hide but poor quality products do.  

ASR prides itself in providing "true" measurements that will aid in purchase decisions.   Why don't the manufacturers provide these measurements so that reviewers can test if they are truthful or not?

Then there are the cables and tweaks for which I suspect that there are inadequate tests available to measure sonically perceived differences but which objectivists believe don't exist or are "snake oil."  

Well, please chime in if you have some illuminating thoughts on the subject.   

I would have loved to see manufacturers measurements on my equipment and especially those that I rejected.  

fleschler

@carlsbad 

Just now reading this thread and you comment just cracked me up!

ASR is the Shock Jock of the audiophile world, 

@amir_asr 

I have plenty of this data.  It falls in these categories:

having plenty of data is like having lots of shoes. You know, like women, who have lots of shoes? is each pair of shoes the right size? Can it match with what she's wearing etc. So having lots of shoes or lots of data are both meaningless unless we can find common ground and repeatable metrics of performance.


1. Company never bothered to make any measurements.  You can count on this being the reason in just about any audio tweaks (cables, etc.).  I know this because they are often surprised by my measurements.  But when I ask them for theirs, they have none.

Okay... so a multi-million dollar company that can afford to take measurements decided not to. The reason for non-sense products in audio is gullible customers; namely non-technical/inexperienced audiophiles. The exuctives and folks in marketing know this - so they produce these products with the intent of selling them for healthy profits! Who are you to ask for product data from companies? Unless of course you have intent to purchase - for example, asking about rated ouput power for a headphone amplifier in mW into a certain number of ohms. 

2. They make very rudimentary measurements often using obsolete audio analyzers that don't remotely present the deep dive that I provide in ASR reviews.  One of the main reasons for this is the cost of instrumentation.  A proper audio analyzer sets you back US $30,000.  A proper speaker measurement requires spending $2K to get measurements in anechoic ichamber or buying $100,000 Klippel NFS that I have.

Have you visted manufacturing facilities and corporate/engineering offices to confirm these supposed findings? I would think that any popular or even remotely successful audio manufacturer has more money than you, so being able to afford an audio analyzer is likely not a hurdle. Your $100k Klippel costs as much as a half-decent Porsche. There are better machines out there. If there's so much bad-measuring gear out there, why are those brands so popular and respected?! for example, Luxman and Accuphase. 

3. They have the right measurements but don't want to publish them.  Harman as noted falls in this category with their speakers.  Their marketing department thinks it will be "confusing" to people if they publish detailed measurements.  Engineers and product planners disagree and leak it in forums and such.  So the information is there but not in product pages.  

If a manufacturer is proud of their work, they will want others  to notice. I've worked with a lot of clients before; some in industrial manufacturing; won't get in to details. However, important information is shared if we ask for it. You cannot be sure of what someone else is thinking (not wanting to publish it) this is merely a correlation you are creating that is otherwise invalid. Of course employees disagree at every company...but that does not mean the end result of their work was an inferior product. 

Note that even if you had measurements on cables for example, they would be useless.  I don't know about you but I don't listen to cables.  Or power conditioners.  Or AC cables.  I listen to the output of my audio system.   You would think if these things change the output of your system, these companies would be anxious to show them in measurements.  Or failing that, using controlled listening tests.  You get neither.

Small amounts of current or voltage variation can influence how well an audio component performs. Different types of metal - copper, silver, CCAW wire can impact sound quality. Why be so opinionated, as though only you are right?! I'm just stating what I believe is true based on experience.


Instead, companies talk about such things as "lower noise," "EMI," "Jitter," yet no measurements are shown.  Instead, some theories are put forward that sound good to consumers.  Sadly some audiophiles buy into these unproven claims so companies think "life is good so why bother."

Again, who cares?!

The industry is transforming though because if they don't measure, then I might.  :)  Smart company would want to get ahead of the game and make their own measurements.  And offer them.  Schiit for example when through this major change from using obsolete measurement gear to what I have now.  Reports are now released with every new product.  

So you are the audio measurement god and all companies must yield before you so that you can measure their electronics and rank them on your website? Who cares what they use. Does it sound good? That's what really matters.

 

Audiophiles have gotten quite a bit more educated and are driving this change.  I routinely hear from companies saying people want me to measure their gear before they buy them.

Where on earth are you reaching this conclusion from: "Audiophiles have gotten quite a bit more educated and are driving this change." Nah, I don't think so. Every audio ethusiast I know visits different audio shops, takes notes, and compares/contrasts audio gear based on listening by themselves and with a friend or their Wife. Because that same system would be in their house if they spent their money and bought it. I don't think audiophiles are flocking to your site like seagulls for french fries..lol


Furthermore, the audio industry as a whole has yet to adapt to viewing audio measurements as all important. If such were the case, published textbooks would have been established as a gold standard hailing your set of audio measurements as supreme. Yet, that has obviously not occured, nor will it ever.

I hope every audiophile is supportive of more information than less and will push the industry to provide comparable and reliable information about their products.

Tell me what you think the product does (product description) and I will tell you if it meets those standards/fills that purpose. That is truly all a prospective buyer needs to know. Good enough or optimal for them, then they can buy what they want and be happy. End of story.
 

@mastering92

Have you visted manufacturing facilities and corporate/engineering offices to confirm these supposed findings? I would think that any popular or even remotely successful audio manufacturer has more money than you, so being able to afford an audio analyzer is likely not a hurdle. Your $100k Klippel costs as much as a half-decent Porsche. There are better machines out there. If there's so much bad-measuring gear out there, why are those brands so popular and respected?! for example, Luxman and Accuphase. 

I have not only visited them, I have had them directly and explicitly tell me they lack such gear.  You and I may think it is justifiable for them to invest in such gear but they think otherwise. Take PS Audio with their super expensive new speakers.  Their designer is active on ASR and clearly stipulates that the company doesn't want to invest in this gear.  So they are having their speaker measured by a third-party testing lab.  After the fact (design) sorry to say.

As to better machines, no, it doesn't exist. The only alternative to Klippel NFS is a massive ancehoic chamber.  I am talking $5M+.  The $1M ones are too small to be anechoic to 20 Hz as Klippel NFS is (actually NFS has no lower limit).

What companies do is take shortcuts with gated high frequency measurements and patching that with ground plane testing.  This gives you decent results but it is very time and resource consuming so it only gets done once in a while.  With Klippel NFS, you can do two scans in a day and generate full 3-D map of the speaker during that time!  It will highly accelerate the design verification.

Then again, $100K plus space and training to use the gear is more than many companies want to spend. This is gradually changing though as I have seen companies buy the system after seeing ASR measurements.  And realizing that the awareness around these measurements is increasingly and rapidly so.

@mastering92 

Small amounts of current or voltage variation can influence how well an audio component performs. Different types of metal - copper, silver, CCAW wire can impact sound quality. Why be so opinionated, as though only you are right?! I'm just stating what I believe is true based on experience.

Me being opinionated?  How about  you all? I stand on shoulders of numerous engineers and designers in audio.  Who do you go by?  Your gut and folklore you read online? 

Back to your point, yes, there are measurable differences in cables which I show day in and day out.  The problem you have is that the sound coming out of your gear does not change.  This is confirmed both in measurements and controlled testing where only your ear is involved.

You want to put your head in the sand, be my guest.  But don't make this personal about me.