Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm


I am trying to do my due diligence about this arm. I am just having a hard time getting my head around this idea of zero overhang and no offset. Does this arm really work the way it is reported to do?

neonknight

I have waited several days before looking in. One does not want to be irritated.

...you are no[t] longer an audiophile. You are just a music lover. Not a bad place to be. Certainly a lot less expensive.

As you wish. I shall still point out when you contradict yourself. What's that? Oh, no problem, you're welcome.

If you are an opera buff then you REALLY need to go to Milan and see a show at Teatro alla Scala. It's like the Sistine Chapel for opera lovers.

And how do you know I have not done so? Let us not get into 'no true Scotsman' territory, nor even the 'no true Wagnerian' subset.

Mijo, do you also have an audio signal generator, a distortion analyzer, a high end oscilloscope, test LPs for IM and HD produced by cartridges, and etc., and is every claim you make here substantiated by hard data using valid controls? If so, I apologize.

The stuff you mentioned is mostly to allow control on the input side. You didn’t mention how you might collect and use data on the output side. Not that there’s anything wrong with using your ears.

@atmasphere 

Agree 100% with you on the distortion which is why i tried to make a parallel with TAE.  I find it highly unlikely that every tonearm cartridge combo will respond to TAE in the same manner and there is more to it than simply slapping a number on it and calling it equal.  I think we can all agree that the lower the TAE the better but If we accept the belief that the lowest TAE is best then a 12" arm must better a 9" arm which is a statement that will draw lots of ire here. Going further a linear tracker would be better yet.   With the new 9" sapphire arm, Kuzma counters this by saying arm rigidity is more important than TAE much in the way Viv labs asserts Skating forces dominate the situation.   I see nothing technically inconsistent in any of the Viv labs assertions to merit calling them "stories" or deceptive in any way but it seems some here feel differently.  

WRT cutting level and mistracking, it seems there is not a good definition of what mistracking actually is.  My take is any movement in a direction not cut on the record is mistracking which means it is  constant occurrence from numerous causes. I think the concept of "If it makes it across track 4 on record X it is a great tracker" is a far to simplistic all or nothing approach. The devil is in the details and lots of things come into play here and exploring the details is the best we can do.

If the coupling isn’t there as I have talked about, one of the results is more mistracking. IOW it works opposite of what you propose. This is simply because the arm is putting more energy into the cantilever.

Like distortion and TAE, mistracking cannot be a one size fits all proposition and making it thus  is going in the wrong direction.  What if it is the type of mistracking is what matters?  I have found that comparing a conical to an advanced profile for a given angular error nets interesting results.  For angles in the ±1° range the advanced profile is substantially better but once outside that range the conical becomes the preferred choice.  IOW 5°≠5°

Regarding your last question, how do you know that underhung arms are actually preferred? Do you know of a poll regarding such??

Didn't mean to suggest that.  I simply noted that amongst the specific subset of Viv Labs arms, the 9" arm seems preferred to the longer versions which is odd if TAE is the true metric of quality some make it.  I do want to be clear that with my current setup (traditional offset overhung rigid bearing arm + advanced profile stylus), I find more than 1° TAE problematic but by comparison the same profile (microrisdge) on the underhung  Schröder reference reminds me nothing of what I would expect hear from a similar error on a traditional arm.  This simply tells me that there must be more to this than simply looking at the TAE as a single factor and explains my interest in this thread.  Do I ultimately expect to become an underhung fanboy???  No... but that doesn't mean there isn't something to be learned from those who like it ~17mm short :-)

dave

Dear @atmasphere : "" one thing that is instantly audible is how much better the bass is, which, if compared to CDs or RtR tape of the same recording, .......... But its more than that, with the rigidity also comes a more transparent midrange and smoother highs ...... """

I agree and I could add something that I posted several times in different forums:

as better the the bass range as better the other ttwo main ranges: mid-range and high frequency bacause the bass and its harmonics now are " clean " and impedes that the " high dust " before puts alot of dirt in the other frequency ranges. Tonearm rigidity is out of question.

A good bass home system management makes per se not only that THD/IMD goes lower but the overall quality reproduced sound/MUSIC been improved by a wide margin and now the system listening sessions really shines as never before. MUSIC in home systems " belongs "/live in the bass range. That’s too why subs is a strictly necessity in any home system.

 

R.

 

 

@intactaudio  : "" by comparison the same profile (microrisdge) on the underhung  Schröder reference reminds me nothing of what I would expect hear from a similar error on a traditional arm.  This simply tells me that there must be more to this than simply looking at the TAE as a single factor.....""

 

and if you make the same test with other 4-5 different tonearms you will listen different quality levels. Of course TAE is not the single factor for that. Almost any one know that exist several other cartridge/parameters that affects directly or inderectly the cartridge/tonearm combination developed listened distortions levels.

I think the " simplistic " is you or have a misunderstood about.

About mistracking @atmasphere  is rigth: it belongs to the play proccess and exist several reasons why that could happens: way out resonance frequency between cartridge/tonearm combination ideal resonance frequency range, vibrations generated external/internally in the room/system ( that's why accurated bass range is a must to have as tonearm rigidity. ), even in LT tonearm designs exist " constant " mistracking " because at stylus tip ride levels that stylus tip has micro/tiny " jumps " following the LP groove modulations, I think that no one is totally sure if the LP off-center and its micro-waves could affects stylus tip tracking, exist some recordings where almost all tonearm/combinations mistracking due to the LP high velocity/amplitude recorded grooves as: original Telarc 1812, at least 2 tracks of original RR 45rpm Dafos LP, M&K D2D Bachs scores and other LPs like these ones Crytal Clear D2D organ scores , etc, etc., mistakes by the system owner in the cartridge/tonearm alignment and VTF parameter and the like, etc, etc.

 

R.