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Speaker positioning and center image depth

I’ve been in so many conversations with people who boast of the depth of the soundstage from a particular pair of speakers to fall well behind said speakers, and others who claim the sound is very much more forward for some speakers. For me, I’ve found that most times, it just depends on how the speakers are positioned in the room.

I find a combination of just slightly too much toe in and just not enough distance between speakers in relation to the listener create a more powerful and forward center image and potentially a narrower soundstage as the speakers end up not taking advantage of the side walls. On the other hand, having the speakers toed out too little at a larger distance from each other results in a more distant center image and at times loses clarity.

Distance from the walls also makes a huge difference here, as well as how well the room is treated. And there are many variables that will change the way a speaker projects the sound.

Of course, many speakers do a better job of imaging a particular way over others, but I’m not convinced of generalizations made about these projections (how forward vs deep a speaker sounds) in reviews or forum threads. For me, it usually has much to do with how it’s set up in the room.

That said, I do believe some speakers play incredibly large, and others small such that the thresholds (toe in, distances, etc) are all variable, which help a speaker work in some rooms better than others. And of course every speaker imparts it’s own sonic character, some more open and transparent and others more recessed and warm, etc.

I’m curious as to other peoples’ reactions and experiences with regards to speaker depth/forwardness, and if they agree with what I’m finding or if they believe the speaker has a much larger role than the room the way I am describing. I’m always looking to learn more.

 

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wolf_garcia
6,631 posts
 

Too much speaker depth and you could fall in and disappear. Hey man...stranger things have happened...also, if you can't deal with ports (seriously...what percentage of speakers have ports?) and actually think they're hard to deal with you really should choose another hobby.

bobpyle
64 posts
 

Your question is not an easy one to answer. It's much more complex than speakers. Recording, mixing, cables (@Jason Bourne - no need for comment) and everything in the chain that affects the delivery of spatial information to our brain.

However, for starters, you are correct that placement (and listening position) are fundamental values to work with, to approach your goal. However, you may find that you are happy with the soundstage presentation, only to find that something has been traded off. 

Speakers all have a different sonic signature and you will find some that need very little dialling in, other than fine tuning of the basic manufacturer recommendations. Some speakers will never deliver your requirements, in your listening environment. These are things that make our hobby such fun and can cause us immense frustration too. As always, several days auditioning in your listening environment is essential for success. The initial "wow" factor can turn out to be a false improvement after a few days.

walkup's avatar
walkup
7 posts
 

Agree with observations. Certain rooms work better than others, certain treatments are better than others and the combination of both room and treatments. The interaction between components also play an important role in sound stage imaging, not just the speakers. You own tastes will be different to that of others. So many variables to consider. Cardas has a good site to explore sound stage derivation and there are a few others that provide similar advice such as creating a grid in your room and within the grid moving your speakers about to find the magic sweet spot. It does exist but it does take time to find it!

tjag
131 posts
 

You already nailed the basic root cause of the issue blisshifi which is independent of the system price tag.

I ended up having to reposition the speakers myself in each room as I was listening, but it only helped so much due to the detrimental effect of the reflections and reverberations.

For any system the reflections from the floor and walls or the lack of them shape the sound image.

This worked best for imaging in my room:

  • 30" long sound absorbers along the wall behind the speakers which are back ported.
  • Speakers are about 35" from the back wall and slightly toed inside.
  • A long haired carpet in front of the speakers.
  • The area between and behind the speakers is empty.
  • Bare wooden floor between and behind the speakers. I tested covering the area between/behind the speakers with carpet but the sound wasn’t good.
  • Speakers decoupled from the floor.

 

Every case is room and system dependent. Only way is to test different treatments to get what you experience as the best.

 

 

hilde45's avatar
hilde45
4,857 posts
 

I've been able to use a combination of the factors listed (positioning, treatment, recording) to get a fairly deep and wide soundstage. (Chesky recordings are often great for testing this, by the way.)

If I start with the best my system can do, what then changes it the most?

The amp, then the preamp, in order of importance.

Keeping everything else stable, swapping a tube amp for my solid state amp has done the most to expand (including deepen) the soundstage.

Next to that, swapping a 6SN7 preamp for my 12AT preamp has done the most.

DAC changes also affect this, but they come in third in importance.

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