New Coincident Frankenstein 300B Stereo Version

A little observation on bass:

This appears to be a unique US phenomenon that good bass is almost always equated to "tight" or "super-duper tight" (aka overdampened) bass.

While we can observe overdampened bass in real life in recording studios, or at venues where the instruments (mainly drums) overload the room acoustics.

The exact opposite is the overly loose bass: just like what you get in a concert hall when you sit at the end of the row close to the exit. Still, it's realistic, but I have not heard of many people standing in line for those seats & that experience....

Yet, while listening to bass at venues with good acoustics at good places, bass is not overly tight - it's just right. A good SET can deliver that, the bass that has a good likeness of both texture in the bass and the right tightness. Overly tight bass representations bleed out the texture of the bass.

Push-pull implementations have bass tighter, with bland bass texture. (=More apparent power, less refined skill/technique.)

Single ended implementations have bass looser, with better bass texture.

Good implementations of each have less issues, and get closer to a fine balance.

It's up to your preferences from which side you want to approach bass - is tightness or texture your #1 goal?

@realworldaudio

Yet, while listening to bass at venues with good acoustics at good places, bass is not overly tight - it’s just right. A good SET can deliver that, the bass that has a good likeness of both texture in the bass and the right tightness. Overly tight bass representations bleed out the texture of the bass.

You are my brother from another mother. 😊

I have been making this point seemingly forever. I have been attending live (Usually smaller/intimate) jazz clubs for 30 years. Often they don’t even bother with microphones on the stage as they’re not necessary. You are hearing pure untampered with acoustic instruments. And you know what? Those upright beautiful wooden bass instruments are not tight!

Certainly not in the overdamped,dry artificial sense that some audiophiles seem to demand. What they are is very full bodied with undeniable warmth, plenty of texture and a natural present bloom. The sound is not slow, flabby or bloated either. There is control but tight and overdamped is no where to be found when playing without the mic.

Now in those circumstances where the acoustic bass is played with an attached microphone through the club’s electronic sound system, all bets are off.

I have had various solid-state amplifiers and a couple of very good PP tube amplifiers. In terms of presenting what sounds like the most authentic acoustic bass, and all other instruments for that matter my 8 watt SET comes closer to that live acoustic vibe than any of the other amplifiers.

It isn’t flawless and speaker choice is critical. But what it excels at just happens to be what matters most to me. Naturalness, realism and emotional/musical connection.

Charles

@Charles- I completely agree with your last point from a purely theoretical standpoint.  I live 10 minutes from Coincident, and have likely owned more models of Coincident speakers over the past 20 years then most on this forum.  One of the best previous combos was a 14-watt SET 211 amp and Air Tight ATC-2 preamp on Total Victories, so am with you on the inherent quality of SET bass.

 **However, when I was last at Israel’s place a couple months back, I was quite blown away by the impact of the double PRE with Franks on top and Parasound A21+ driving all 4 woofers (double bass cabinets as well).  The naturalness on the mids/highs combined with the massive impact on the bass was really something, and the bass didn’t seem ‘overdone’ either…

Boy, there is some real wisdom in the above comments by @realworldaudio !  For most of us, our first experience hearing the low frequency component of music was sitting in our buddies 8x10 bedroom listening to Jack Bruce's electric bass with Ginger Baker whacking away on his bass drum, as reproduced by a 13 WPC Technics receiver through Cerwin-Vega speakers.  Oh the horror of it all, the source was a cheap dual table with a $39 Shure cartridge sitting on top of one of the speakers. (Perhaps this is why so many of us fell in love with Clapton!) I might suggest this miserable excuse for reproduction of music was the basis for the "unique US phenomenon" to which real world alludes.  It didn't take a discerning ear to figure out that Cerwin Vegas in a bedroom wasn't quite "right", so what was "right" must be the pendulum swinging to the opposite position.  But no, that is not quite right either. 

Real world gets to the heart of the flaw in the TAS theory.  He points out that in the same venue, one can experience bass that is too loose, too tight, or just right, depending upon where one sits.  But since all of these are real experiences of unamplified music in a live venue, they are all "right" in an objective sense.  Choosing one of these three as "right" is a matter of personal preference.  

For years, my preferred seat in my local symphonic venue was in the front row, less than 10 feet away from the cello section.  This was in the Indianapolis Circle Theater, where as far as I was able to determine. there was no good seat.  It is just a hall with miserable acoustics.   I sat in the front row right in front of the cellos because that is where the cellos sounded best..  I sat there for enough years to become acquaintances with one of the cellists.  I recall a conversation I had with him regarding why I sat in the front row.  He told me to move my seat to the dress circle.  He said "symphonic" means "sound together" and that is how this music is meant to be heard.  I replied, that may be, but the ghost of LvB is not haunting me and the cellos sound better here!

My decision to move from SET to Atma-sphere's OTL WAS NOT because of low frequency reproduction.  In actual fact, what I found was that every aspect of the music just sounded a bit better-more real-more right- in my room to my ears.  

The absolute sound concept has value, but it has limitations. As real world so beautifully pointed out, the absolute sound is not a singular experience in the real world. It is a range of experiences all of which are possible within the same venue.  Some like their coffee unsweetened, some like one spoon of sugar, some like two.

The most important component in any system is the ear-brain, the second is the speaker-room, and everything else follows. 

I suspect that @hilde45 could add much to this discussion if he has time.   

@brownsfan 

The absolute sound concept has value, but it has limitations. As real world so beautifully pointed out, the absolute sound is not a singular experience in the real world. It is a range of experiences all of which are possible within the same venue.  Some like their coffee unsweetened, some like one spoon of sugar, some like two.

The most important component in any system is the ear-brain, the second is the speaker-room, and everything else follows. 

I suspect that @hilde45 could add much to this discussion if he has time.  

Very pertinent comments from you and @sutts as well. I am in no way suggesting that excellent (which to me means natural bass) performance is not possible with non SET amplification. I was really connecting to what @realworldaudio was explaining as it fit my listenings experiences so closely.

I wanted to make the point that a high quality SET amplifier with appropriate speakers can produce very convincing and natural bass in one's audio system. Bill I do not doubt for a momment you are not enjoying superb bas with your Atma-Sphere M-60s. It's simply the better match for your speakers/room and desires.

In that context same for me with the Frankenstein MK II with my Total Eclipse II. The correct buttons are being pushed.☺. It's all good.

Charles