Law of Accelerated Returns


I think back over the many decades of pursuing high end audio and I realize some of the most inspirational were listening to state of the art systems. Systems I could never dream of affording. I occasionally would get up early and drive the two hours to Phoenix in hopes of finding no one listening to the state of the art system in “the big room” at one of the four or five high end audio stores there in the early ‘90’s.

One such time I was able to spend over an hour with the most amazing system I have ever heard: Wilson WAAM BAMM (or something like that… all Rowland electronics, Transparent interconnects). The system cost about over $.5 million… now, over a million… although I am sure it is even better (I can’t imagine how)..

 

But listening to that system was so mind blowing… so much better than anything I could conceive of, it just completely changed my expectation of what a system could be. It was orders of magnitude better than anything I had heard.

 

Interestingly, as impressed as I was… I did not want “that” sound, as much as I appreciated it. It still expanded my horizon as to what is possible. That is really important, as it is really easy to make judgments on what you have heard and not realize the possibilities… like never having left the small town in Kansas (no offense).

I keep reading these posts about diminishing returns. That isn’t the way it works. I recently read an article by Robert Harley in The Absolute Sound called the Law of Accelerated Returns that captures the concept perfectly. March 2022 issue. The possibilities in high end audio is incredible. Everyone interested in it in any way deserves to hear what is possible. It is mind expanding. 

 

 

ghdprentice

Jeez, when a dealer refuses to let you listen to a system unless you can buy it... there's just nothing honest about it. I can understand that he will not go to lengths to put the system up for you as the dealers priority is the potential buyer. He has the obligation to put the system together for the guy who wants to hear it before he takes it home. The casual listener's curiosity is only next in line. 

However, when someone wants to buy a top rig, then others should be allowed to listen. If not, avoid those f-tards and don't do any business for them. They will not give you good advice, their priority is to pocket your money, at any level you are.

I guess I'm lucky with my dealers in the area. (Honolulu). Stu (my mentor, RIP) had his small room with more affordable systems, and his big room with his top systems and everyone was always welcome to listen. We actually lived in his store... we spent hours (sometimes half days) every week listening to gear (and talking stories;.), and making lots of close, long lasting friendships in the store.

And there's Toms store, Audiolab. He makes regular audio club events to hear the top gear, and bring your CDs / Lps you want to hear. He had Dave Wilson come over and set up the top of the line Wilson speakers in person, and was present to ask questions - a very humble and approachable man (RIP).

Dealers should be honest and transparent, and audiophiles should be offered a perspective of the entire range from entry level to highest available. Whether one can afford at the moment is not of big concern, as in time a lot can change and even a top system might become the matter of a quick signature.... or the guy who bought the top system might be coming back next year for a dose of Schiit after loosing his job.... 

Of course, after a certain point we reach a high level, and once optimized, with changes there is relatively subtle differences unless you are willing to radically change your systems approach.

There is a big chasm after this level, and there's a level that's really far out: when you quit analyzing the sound and it becomes a next-level experience. It will hit you like a shock-wave, and people who go though it look as if they had a trauma, took drugs or something very stirring happened in their lives. It might take you months to be able to gather the strength to listen to your system after an experience like this. Maybe you will be broken or changed forever. For me, the fifth high end system I ever heard was this experience, and it pushed me to change from an ordinary person regarding audio as a hobby / interesting thing / buy what I can afford and that's it - to go into audio hard core, spend many thousand hours researching it, and build and design amplifiers and speakers that get me that experience I got from the system that required more dough than a Silver Spirit (the car...).

I ended up building my system that gave me experience with that level of depth, for about 1% or less than what the expensive system did cost. However, have I not heard it, I would never had such a high mark in front of me. You can only knock on a door if you know it exists....

Harley’s example is ridiculous! Going from $1000 to $2000 speaker is a 100% increase. Going from $100,000 to $101,000 is only a 1 % increase. Of course the difference / improvement should be much greater with the former. 
 

Everything has diminishing returns, audio equipment, cars, bicycles etc. You can get a pretty well performing Mid size Sedan like the top tier V-6 Honda Accord or  Toyota Camry for about $3500 & they get you maybe 80-85% of what a nice Mercedes’ or BMW sedan which costs twice that. That said, the Japanese cars will likely be much more reliable long term. High performance anything costs a lot 

This is an interesting discussion, mainly because it so well illustrates the essence of Audiogon as a forum. We have:

  • Someone stating an observation @ghdprentice 
  • Many contributors adding valid points to the discussion @tablejockey @onhwy61 @mulveling 
  • Others who mix fact and opinions in a way that does not add to the discussion @mijostyn ("An Apple watch is more accurate [...] You can see Rolex watch wearers a mile away. Their left arm is two inches longer."). To me, as a watch collector, that attitude is akin to saying "cables make no difference". Try wearing a Rolex or swapping cables before making a generalisation.  
  • Then there are those that have found their personal equilibrium @mapman (and myself) and have realised that there will always be someone with a faster car, a bigger house, a more expensive (not necessarily "better") hifi system/watch/boat/airplane/etc. What is best for me will not be best for you. You may not like the way my system sounds but that's not what's important. What is important is that it sounds good to me, within my spatial, financial, and "sound taste" constraints. @emailists is on the right track: let's experiment and see whether we can actually get some significant improvements into our audio systems without breaking the bank. 
  • @jerryg123 nails it: tolerance goes a long way. "Enjoy what you have and envy is not worn well. [...] it is about the music." Yes, we have posers everywhere - on the race track, at work, even on forums... so be it. They just haven't found their equilibrium yet. 

To bring this discussion full circle: let's not forget that the audiophile media and journalists make their living from advertising. Of course they will tout the latest and greatest "innovation". My ears tell me that the progress made with SOTA high end systems over the past 30 years is not insignificant. However, the cost associated with that progress takes me to a point on the curve of Accelerated/Diminishing Returns where I look at the $s and just ask, "Seriously?"

 

Your Mileage (and Bank Balance) May Vary.

 

 

@torquerulesok , that is an excuse for not being an audiophile. It is not all about who has the largest member. It is about audio performance and nothing else. People like you are music lovers but not audiophiles. This is not meant to be a derogatory comment. Being so certainly makes for a more peaceful existence.   

Rolex watches are all about demonstrating your superiority. As a watch collector you know there are much nicer watches than Rolex, Patek Philippe, Blancpain and Jaquet Droz come to mind. Watches can be extraordinarily beautiful devices, Rolex's are not. ( that, of coarse is an opinion.)

Trying to tune your system with cables is at best a multiplication of errors and at worst a frightful waste of money.

It is all relative. To us regular folks a $250K amplifier is nuts but, to a billionaire it is chump change. To them buying a Parasound would be equivalent to a 911 fan buying a Toyota Corolla. Both get you from A to B and the Toyota is much more reliable. Rich people who want to be really cool buy a Prius. It use to be Volovo drivers that were always getting in your way. That role has been taken over by the Prius and Honda CRV. Why is it that these people are never in a hurry? 

And when someone point to a better understanding of the law of diminishing return and this illusory " accelerating return perspective" , calling the acoustic method the only optimizing KEY road to enjoy the gear you have or toward which you want to upgrade what did you call him?

 

 

Acoustic optimization of speakers/room are more than an "obsevation" is experimental science in your room...

I dont "mix fact and opinion here" ask any acoustician: i correlate fact and measures to subjective perceptive experience in a systematic way...

and like mapman i have found my personal equilibrium but at the end of a time consuming process of listening experiments at NO COST though...

Yes "tolerance goes a long way " toward people themselves not toward consumers brand obsession, or upgrading consumerism coupled to acoustic ignorance...

Am i nut ?

Perhaps.... Anyway acoustic is not preposterous at all...

And remember that in a dedicated small room, acoustic treatment and control may cost NOTHING at all, but it will not be esthetical, at least not for a very poor craftsman like me.... 😁😊

Because i am the only one who say that INPORTANT FACT i repeat myself here to the benefit of newcomers who will read everywhere the illusive consumerism appeal to upgrade the gear EVEN BEFORE knowing his working potential in their room....Or to stoically stay with their frustration and unsatidfaction IF they dont had the money to upgrade...

With acoustic no one need to upgrade if his gear is already only good....We need to LEARN how to listen though to learn acoustic and create our own sonic heaven.... Peanuts cost is possible but not in a living room sorry...

 

This is an interesting discussion, mainly because it so well illustrates the essence of Audiogon as a forum. We have:

  • Someone stating an observation @ghdprentice
  • Many contributors adding valid points to the discussion @tablejockey @onhwy61 @mulveling
  • Others who mix fact and opinions in a way that does not add to the discussion @mijostyn ("An Apple watch is more accurate [...] You can see Rolex watch wearers a mile away. Their left arm is two inches longer."). To me, as a watch collector, that attitude is akin to saying "cables make no difference". Try wearing a Rolex or swapping cables before making a generalisation.
  • Then there are those that have found their personal equilibrium @mapman (and myself) and have realised that there will always be someone with a faster car, a bigger house, a more expensive (not necessarily "better") hifi system/watch/boat/airplane/etc. What is best for me will not be best for you. You may not like the way my system sounds but that’s not what’s important. What is important is that it sounds good to me, within my spatial, financial, and "sound taste" constraints. @emailists is on the right track: let’s experiment and see whether we can actually get some significant improvements into our audio systems without breaking the bank.
  • @jerryg123 nails it: tolerance goes a long way. "Enjoy what you have and envy is not worn well. [...] it is about the music." Yes, we have posers everywhere - on the race track, at work, even on forums... so be it. They just haven’t found their equilibrium yet.

To bring this discussion full circle: let’s not forget that the audiophile media and journalists make their living from advertising. Of course they will tout the latest and greatest "innovation". My ears tell me that the progress made with SOTA high end systems over the past 30 years is not insignificant. However, the cost associated with that progress takes me to a point on the curve of Accelerated/Diminishing Returns where I look at the $s and just ask, "Seriously?"