The speaker and amp need to be considered as one. Get this right.
wise words
Underpowered?
Hi guys. Newbie here asking for advice.
I recently purchased a pair of B&W 702 Signature (8Ω, 30-300W, 90 dB) to replace my old faithful 683s (8Ω, 20-200W, 90 dB). I am running them with a McIntosh MA252 (100W into 8Ω, 160W into 4Ω). I purchased them thinking they would complete my end-game system. However, my excitement turned into disappointment when I realized the lows were somewhat lacking. For all their faults, the 683s had a great dynamic low kick (no sub) that I was looking to take one step further. Unsurprisingly, the highs and mids on the 702s were indeed more detailed and separation was clearer, but I couldn't get over the uninspiring lows. I found myself listening at higher volumes chasing for that bass oomph. Neither playing with the EQ at the source nor the amp was satisfactory. So, I did the research that perhaps I should've done before purchasing the 702s and found out they are quite power hungry despite the specs being similar to the 683s. I emailed B&W and McIntosh and they agreed the amp is probably underpowered for the 702s. B&W described the sound of an underpowered speaker as one lacking low response and details, which is spot on. McIntosh suggested the MA352 (200W into 8Ω, 320W into 4Ω).
Of note, I love the MA252 and really wish there was a way to make this work. I don't need a DAC/streamer/etc so I'm happy to put all my money on better sound vs tech features. But I also think the speakers sound amazing even when somewhat underpowered and I'm considering upgrading to a MA352, Michi X3, Hegel 390. Another option could be to get a sub? But I feel that would defeat the purpose of having a 3way standing speaker and then I might as well get a pair of bookshelf speakers (805 D4s, LS50 metas?).
So what do you guys think? Is it normal for a speaker that's rated 30-300W to be underpowered with a 100W amp?? What would you do:
Sell the 702s and look for a better match for my MA252?
Upgrade the MA252 (MA352? Michi X3? NAD 33?)?
Get a subwoofer?
I would really appreciate your thoughts/advice!
I have auditioned your amp driving Vandersteen 2Ce Signature III as pointed out by @ctsooner. MA seems to drive Vandersteen 2Ce reasonably well with full bottom end but the pairing sound a bit warmer to my liking. But that is a matter of personal preference. |
Update: It was the amp. After checking all connections and trying unsuccessfully to play with positioning and with the amp's EQ, I gave my local dealer a call and they graciously allowed me to borrow their MA352. They also made me borrow a power conditioner promising it would make a difference. Coincidentally, they had a pair of 702 S2 driven by a 120W Rotel amp, so I got to audition the speakers there, and they sounded glorious. So this is what I did when I got back home:
3. Removed the power conditioner from the chain: this one was trickier. Multiple back and forths and testing multiple songs. If there is an improvement, it is subtle and barely noticed on A/B comparisons. Next step is blind tests which I will do later today. I am still getting a sub (used REL S5/SHO), so I will report back on how much it contributes, but I can tell you, now with the MA352 I feel no need for a sub. Maybe that will change when I try one, but if not, the REL will be a great addition to my secondary system/home theater. I just don't understand why B&W would rate this speaker 30-300W when even 100W were not enough to drive it properly, and when they recommend themselves using at least half of the maximum power. I learned than an amp wattage is not just how loud it can get, but that it affects the quality of the sound even at lower volumes when output wattage is waaaay below the max. I'm so grateful for everyone's input, and special kudos to @erik_squires @ditusa @samac @mofojo @jpconer @styleman @sandthemall @dinov @steve59 for getting it right. For anyone who's interested, here are a few songs I thought were useful during all my tests (particularly the first 30-60 seconds of each). Thanks to everyone who contributed. I hope others also find this thread helpful as I'm sure I wasn't the only one unknowingly underpowering my speakers. Daniel |
OP. Thanks for the report back. I would not have thought that was the problem. While more power helps solidify bass, etc. That big a difference is surprising to me. But, really glad you solved the problem. For power conditioners, they improve most folks systems, but occasionally they don’t… put yourself into the lucky category. |