Is there an ideal (ish) cartridge output?

Yeah, I actually think the two most important specs in all of audio are cartridge output and speaker sensitivity. They are like two sides of the same coin. If the speakers put out at least 90 dB then finding a good amp is easy because just about anything will do. By the same token if the cartridge output is medium range around 0.5 or 0.6 mV or higher, something like that, then there's a huge number of phono stages that will work just fine. 

I'm not saying there's not more to it. Simplifying, obviously. Those low output carts tend to have fewer coil windings which tends to lead to greater detail. But its all relative. The lower you go the harder it gets to find a phono stage that doesn't lose in noise what you gained in the low output cartridge. 

I don't know that you need to go all the way to 1.5 - 2mV to get there. But then on the other hand I think there's a reason some prefer MM over MC and its probably got a lot to do with this output factor. 

As for why there aren't more of them, chalk it up to the incredible drive of so many audiophiles to make everything so much harder than it needs to be. I mean look, bi-amping, bi-wiring and all of that should have died out years ago. Low output MC gives guys the chance to spend endlessly on step-up transformers, of which there are literally hundreds. These things are so incredibly load specific they are near tailor made for the audiophile who wants to feel so cool he made something work nobody else could figure out. 

What they really need to figure out, when you get to a certain level, you can spend near infinitely on this stuff or for a fraction of the cost leapfrog the whole mess with a strain gauge. But that's another one for another day.

I have too many cartridges and with a proper phono stage the problem with cartridge output does not exist at all. Position of the volume control on my passive Aleph L preamp is not always the same (the power amp is Yamamoto A08S now). Everything from 0.15 to 5mV (or higher) is fine. Even lower output MC are OK. All you need is a decent phono stage (like gold note ph-10 with optional gain settings). 

Regarding MM cartridges i think 3mV is fine, there are lower output MM and higher output MM up to 9mV sometimes. Something like 3-5mV is medium. 

I agree. I think that a well-specified phono stage usually solves most of the issues. I think that one can have too much gain as easily, as too little. 

Another aspect that also got me thinking about this, is when you crank the volume on an input of a cd player or DAC when nothing is playing you get silence, but when you do that with a phono stage you will quickly get noise when past a certain threshold when music is not playing. Which got me thinking does anyone have a phono setup where that does not happen?

In a way it's not about what gear can you get to give you the best output, but more over what is the best output to give you the lowest noise without sacrificing performance. Hypothetically, would this be a great combination for low SNR and THD, without sacrificing a designer's voicing of a cartridge or phono stage?

- .8mv phono cartridge
- 52db gain from the phono stage in a balanced configuration

Cartridges in that middle ground of 1.0 to 2.0mV tend to be either HOMC or MI types.  In my experience and in my opinion only, HOMCs are rarely top class, usually duds, whereas MI types often are among my favorites.  Therefore, I would make no distinction based only on output signal voltage.  There is no "ideal", in other words. Of course, it is imperative that your particular phono stage can deal with the output of whatever cartridge you happen to like.

Another aspect that also got me thinking about this, is when you crank the volume on an input of a cd player or DAC when nothing is playing you get silence, but when you do that with a phono stage you will quickly get noise when past a certain threshold when music is not playing. Which got me thinking does anyone have a phono setup where that does not happen?

My Herron VTPH-2 (not 2A), used with an Audio Technica AT-ART9 cartridge rated at 0.5 mv, is amazingly quiet.

I frequently play minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings which can reach brief dynamic peaks of 100 to 105 db at my 12 foot listening distance, but when I turn the volume control up to settings that are well above any that I might ever use I hear zilch unless my ears are very close to the speakers. And likewise when I listen via Stax electrostatic headphones, which certainly do not have a rolled off top end.
That is with the stock tubes, btw, and with the Herron applying essentially no load (i.e., a near infinite number of ohms) to the cartridge.

Comments by some members that I've seen here have have led me to suspect that the more recent VTPH-2A might be somewhat more noisy, at least with the stock tubes, and I've certainly been very happy with the sonics of the VTPH-2, so I have no plans to have the unit upgraded to the more recent version.

Regards,
-- Al