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New Old Thiel CS6 Speakers--Too Harsh

Hi All,

New pair of Thiel CS6 Speakers. First true pair of 'audiophile' speakers (...still might go back to my Kappa 7's and 8's).

Imaging and that 'holographic' sound is pretty good on the Thiels but not as good as the JBL 4312a's.  But again I am plagued by harshness in my system. It seems detail and excellent spatial performance just equates to brittle, harsh and painful in my room. I like to listen at rather loud volumes.

Frequencies that appear to be the problem are between 2khz all the way up to 16khz. If I EQ the system is listenable. 

The other issue the Thiels seem to have is out of phase low bass due to the passive radiator. Can anyone confirm this?

Here is my setup right now:
Modwright Oppo 105d (physical media and streaming)
Sonic Frontiers Line 2 preamp
Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 
14x17 room, on concrete slab carpeted with additional thick throw rug, heavy velour drapes over windows, bare walls and cd/record shelves, nothing on the ceiling.

What is causing the tizzy sharpness in my system/room?

So far the Infinity Kappa Series with its ribbon tweeters has sounded best in my room. The 8's are very impactful and tonally very complete. The 7's are close, not quite as impactful but have better imaging due to lower tweeter height. 

....and I don't want truth. I want beauty.

:-)

Thanks!


128x128brettmcee
georgehifi's avatar
georgehifi
10,312 posts
 
34pm
@brettmcee OP


Btw your Bat is a fine amp for these CS6, and should be a great match with that load if working well, and not be the problem of your hard highs, unless there is a problem with it like the bias is out or caps need changing. (Is it equally nice and warm on both sides after an hour) this will tell you if the bias is OK.
But it’s probably the "ferro fluid" as I stated above if it has it and gone hard, go onto the Thiel forums and find out from the "experts" if they had "ferro fluid" in the tweeters many do and don't say it.

Cheers George
masi61
97 posts
 

I think I can be of some assistance here. I have Thiel CS 3.6's and experienced both of the issues that you described, 1) the harshness and 2) the strange "out of phase" bass quality.

I would first of all say that while I have not listened to the Modright Oppo 105d, my gut tells me that your front end is NOT the cause of the harshness. I would say it is, with very high probability the AMP. I don't know the specific specs for a Conrad Johnson Premier 350 but it sounds like "parkhurst" above identified a mis-match with his CJ amp and the 3.6's. My previous power amp, an NAD 2200pe sounded very harsh and fatiguing with the 3.6's. The layering and detail in my digital recordings was all congealed and compressed in a very fatiguing way. I hated it. o I set out to do something about it. I ended up purchasing a Bryston 4B2 solid state amp. Apparently the 3.6's are present a very difficult low impedence load to the amp. I almost bought one of the hot rodded McCormack amps (used) that I had read quite a bit about. Instead I went with Bryston (new) for their 20 year warranty. The Bryston 4B2 (now replaced by the 4B3 which is even clearer sounding) really has the power that these 3.6's need. My Bryston is also hooked up to a Bryston BIT15 power conditioner which I believes helps as well. With a proper power amp that can handle the lower impedence loads your 3.6's will be much happier.


As to your issue with the bass. First of all see if a proper (solid state or tube) amp that can handle this speaker's low impedence needs helps the bass. Do much auditioning of your music as you make these changes. But my bass had been in focus in my rectangular listening room with the speakers arranged along the long wall. Then my girlfriend re-organized the room while I was at work and decided (on her own) that it made more sense to position the speakers along the short wall. Mistake! I noticed the bass being cancelled out right away. Turns out it was a sonic room node causing some cancelling of the bass energy. We put the speakers back where they originally were and like magic, the bass is back to being tight, and focused again!

uncle_monkey's avatar
uncle_monkey
54 posts
 
I didn’t have Thiels nearly that size (2.2’s) but still know exactly what you’re talking about. I originally demoed them with Spectral and McIntosh. My original environment was less than optimal, but a few years later I was able to build a dedicated listening room. Since I had Maggies previously, I thought I was ok as far as power went. I went from 2 Adcom 555’s to one, to NAD to Bryston (close but..?), not to mention whatever friends hauled over. I finally nailed it with BAT and the bat-pak. VK-220 and VK-3iX.

Something about having that current on reserve with the bat-paks totally solved the bass sluggishness (something about that passive radiator being slightly out of sync with the bass driver?) and the top was unbelievably sweet and tame. PS audio cable Xstream Statement throughout and the XLR I think made a heck of a difference as well (from MIT/Cardas/Nordost combos). I didn’t need nearly as much power as I always assumed, but just that added reserve. I guess like torque on a V8, the bat paks add instant current. Most impressive was the low volume performance. Before the things used to have to start getting loud to get the drivers moving. They sounded amazing at whisper levels.

Recordings I had hated were suddenly lush. For instance, I had an "audiophile" Japanese pressing of XTC’s Nonsuch that made my ears bleed. I literally almost tossed it. Suddenly it was so much better than the original redbook, articulate, subtle - a totally different beast. It certainly didn’t romanticize bad recordings, but good ones got better, and some that were etched before were obviously being emphasized by the amp/cable combos.
I am a bit surprised that the CJ isn’t doing it, and as others have suggested double check the room treatments. Mine were in a 12x18 room, about 7’ out into the room, and about 30" away from side walls with listening position about 10’ away and LP rack taking the rear wall. Room was pretty inert overall.
brettmcee's avatar
brettmcee OP
218 posts
 
Thanks much for your post!

I love CJ amps for their 'holographic' sound, but in my room i am always ending up with harshness.

The last setup that worked great in my room were Infinty Kappa 8's powered by BAT VK 500 with batpak on lows and ZH-270 on highs. Sounded amazing! Nothing can beat those huge cones on the Kappas. They totally pressurize the room. And the ribbon tweeters are nice and airy...

But the Kappa 8's keep shorting out different amps. I will never hook my CJ up to them.

I am sending my BAT VK-500 for full maintenance shortly...once it's back I'll give it a shot.

The Thiels are much clearer and cleaner but yes a passive radiator design means that something is out of phase in the lows...and you can hear it compared to the Kappas. But the Thiels never lose composure no matter how hard you drive them.  But so far they make some of my favorite albums sound horrible if not EQ'ed (anything by peter gabriel and genesis). Very consistent at any volume. 

I have been eqing with a Venu360.  Sadly it redigitizes the signal just before the amplifier.  Any adjustments seem to step all over the spatial qualities of the sound but can tame the harshness.  I realize sadly this is not a solution to the problem.  The more I listen the more it sounds like a ratty band-aid.  

My room is 14x20 but it's a multipurpose space. So my Thiels are 1.5 to 2 feet from the back wall. The speakers can only be setup on a short wall in this room. The Kappa 8's were great for how not deep physically the cabinets are and how little they relied on their cabinets to fill out the bass. And you can easily get them 1-3 feet from the back wall.

Please send more thoughts.
brettmcee's avatar
brettmcee OP
218 posts
 
HI All,

When it comes to driving my new old CS6's, a Carver Signature Sunfire Load Invariant Amp (600w) is trouncing my CJ Premier 350.

More bass, greater specificity in imaging, a bit more 'immediate' sounding and the harshness I was experiencing with the CJ amp is mostly gone.

I have to send my BAT VK-500 with BatPak in for servicing. I am hoping that it will best both the aforementioned amps when it comes to the Cs6's. 

I will be trying two Crown Class D XLS1500s in mono this weekend.  Should put out 1500w to really get that volume of air moving that moves the passive radiator. 

Is there a tube-based power amp that one could try to drive the CS6's?
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