System Upgrade

Ahofer, we have ATC SCM 19MK II an 85db efficient loudspeaker, we play them very well with an Naim Uniti Atom a 40 watt amplifer. The Naim is punchy and warm so it adds life to the ATC which tend to sound clean and the Naim’s amplifier stage creates a punchy sound with the ATC. So we have seen first hand that a low powered amplifier can drive and derive excellent sound from an inefficient set of loudspeakers.

We have no issues getting them to sound good and play loud enough in a decent sized room 18 by 14 with a 10 foot ceiling.

This gentleman allready has expensive cables, dac, and amplifier.

The issue is what we call mud: warm speakers, warm digital, warm cabling, this all creates a sound which isn’t involving and requires you to raise the volume to hear details.

The corollary is sizzle systems: bright speakers, bright amp, bright source, bright cabling = fatiguing sound, over sibillent sound.

He needs to rebalance the system by adding in products which add more detail or sparkle to the sound.

Our suggestion is to borrow two cables from the Cable Company, a set of interconnects and a set of speaker cables, willing to bet dollars to donuts without changing anything else just changing the cabling will bring the system back into some sense of balance.

We are not saying that more power won’t be a good thing, more power is never a bad thing, howerver, we have seen many 85-87db loudspeakers sound fantastic with a low powered amplifier and still get to both a decent volume level and get great sound until you run out of steam and the amplifier distorts.

When you have to turn up the volume to hear detail means details are being lost, we have systems that sound fantastic at lower volume levels, we look for high resolution loudspeakers such as KEF, or Paradigm, or Focal, or others, that preserve all the details in the music and then match those cleaner speakers with warmer electronics.

It is all about system synergy.

The Leben is a terrific amplifier if this gentleman moved into a more efficient loudspeaker he would be in win win scenario.

His loudspeakers are not efficient, and they don’t go that low in terms of bass, for the same real estate as a stand mount he could move into a floor stander with both greater efficiency and more deep bass.

Harbeth is one of those love hate brands, we are personally not fans way too colored, and although they have stunning cabinetry, for the price of $7k plus a set of stands there are tons of great floorstanding loudspeakers that will offer more overall sound for the dollar.

Harbeth does have a very musical sound and can be very engaging, which is their draw, so this gentleman has a few choices;

1: Change amplifier: now he has to find an amplifier which will work well with his other choices and this amplifier may not have the midrange magic and soundstaging that a good tube amplifer has.

2: Change loudspeakers: audition a set of more efficient 90-92+ efficient loudspeakers that work well with a 32 watt tube amplifier, here again you have the possibility of gaining both greater efficiency you may also gain a loudspeaker which has greater dynamic range, more bass and may have a more lifelike sound.

3: Change cabling to a brighter sounding set of cables which will help rebalance the sound by adding more detail and clarity, brighter sounding cabling is AQ, Nordost. Netural Wireworld, Wamer Cardas, Transparent, MIT, Kubala, Shunyata. He has warm sounding cables, he need to try brighter more detailed one hence the AQ or Nordost recommendation.

We have heard systems with plenty of power that played loud and still had no detail, if you obsure information playing louder doesn’t fix that problem.

If you are going to demo amplifiers you don’t need necessarily 300 watts you need an amplifier which will drive those speakers well and provide the sound quality you are looking for. Please test our suggestion by borrowing some cables and then seeing if you get the detail back before changing the amplifier. If the cabling does the trick you are good to go. Then if you still want more then you should try a different amplifier but also consider if the Harbeths are really the best speakers for your application.


Good luck OP.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Let me reiterate, the Leben amp and these speakers mate well and I have heard this exact combination sound exceptional.

a few things you might try:

Do you have great headphones? Listen through the headphone port on the Leben to ensure the sound quality is terrific. Report back to the group because this would isolate your issues between the amp and the speakers if it sounds great. If it doesnt sound great, the problem is server, network or dac to amp for the issues. If using roon, check your settings and try disabling sample rate conversion and/or dsp. Are you using a good ethernet cable?

If nothing then try setting your Leben on the 8 ohm setting.

A wildcard to check is your power. What kind of conditioner are you plugged into? Maybe plug the components directly into the wall or even a different outlet. You may be being starved for ac.

Another wildcard. How are you plugged into the Harbeths? On those speakers, there are two posts on each speaker for the positive/negative for low frequencies and the same for high frequencies. Are you using quality jumpers between the respective lf/hf pos/neg terminals? Is it tight? Are you certain you have the positive and negative properly wired in phase? Something else that may work is to plug the negative cable for each speaker to the low frequency negative and plug the positive cable into the high frequency positive.

Do you have any other cables to try. While the Harbeth SHL5’s arent the best speaker in the Harbeth line, there is a synergy with Harbeth and Leben. While the spl of this combo may fail to check your boxes, it should be a combo with some magic that it doesnt sound like you are hearing. Best wishes and good luck.

The issue is what we call mud: warm speakers, warm digital, warm cabling, this all creates a sound which isn’t involving and requires you to raise the volume to hear details.

The corollary is sizzle systems: bright speakers, bright amp, bright source, bright cabling = fatiguing sound, over sibillent sound.

He needs to rebalance the system by adding in products which add more detail or sparkle to the sound.

I don't think we have a consensus definition of "mud" (or "magic" for that matter).  As I've said before, I think cables and amps are incredibly expensive tone controls and shouldn't be used as such.  But we just differ on that approach.

I have an off topic but related question I'll pose separately.

@mdmdwyer

Something else occurred to me and its probably an obvious thing that you have already checked but you may be experiencing one speaker out of phase.

Please double check to ensure you have your speaker cables wired correctly on the back of the Leben. If you are looking at the amp from the rear, unlike many amplifiers where the speaker taps are "mirror" image, the Leben alternates. So, from looking at it from L to R you will have the right channel positive tap, then the right channel negative tap, then the left channel positive tap and then the left channel negative tap.

You have probably already checked it but its worth a try. Best wishes.

Ahofer cables and amps are incredible tone controls, so is adding spices to foods, adding more or unusual ingredients to a well known dish to alter the flavor to taste.

Came up with the Coffe Drinkers School of Audiology many years ago.

Take a great high end coffe bean, crystal clear filtered water, and a good coffee machine now make and serve your coffee.

Coffee drinker One: Total neuturalilty camp: Pure, hot coffee no milk, no sugar = the detail guy wants to hear everything no coloration great recordings sound great, bad recordings sound horrible.

Other end of the spectrum: Coffee Drinker Two:  The sweet Coffee guy or the polar opposite of Coffee drinker One:

Take 1/4 cup of cream, six table spoons of sugar, yes the high end coffee is still there you just can’t taste it, the flavor is predominantly rich, mellow, sweet, but very little coffee flavor, a new creation. This listener craves the ability to never have to have any listener fatique everything and every recording sounds good, this kind of listener likes a rich tube amplifier, warm loudspeakers, lot of vinyl, the system sound lovely but doesn’t sound like real music.

Middle Ground Coffee Drinker Three: Standard cup with the bite removed: the slightly toned down version of neutral. This listener strives for a system that sounds real but the top end is a bit warmer. The Coffee analog is a touch of milk or cream with a bit of sugar. This listener craves a realistic listening experience with a just a bit of euponic coloration. Cymbols crash, high hats have bit but not too much.

Now you have three points on the curve, hyper detailed on one extreme, on the other side hyper warm on the other end, and the more middle ground, neutral with a bit of softening. Of course there are more points on the scale but these are given to illustrate a point of reference. 

Audio is like cooking we start with a great set of speakers as the speaker determines the kind of amplifier and the power required, we demo many in our floor: Kef, Paradigm, ATC, Quad, Golden Ear, etc, then we demo different electronics, first we start with solid state inegrateds, then separates, then tubes or possibly hybrid systems with a tube preamp with a solid state power amplifier,  then we demo different digital front ends.

So yes tube amplifiers sound different then solid state, some solid state amplifiers are bright, some are warm, some cables are bright, some neutral some are warm, same with digitial.

A good system requires carefull matching and balancing all of the parts, which is why for this gentleman we said start with a simple switch to brighter cleaner sounding interconnects, which are easy to ship and demo.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ