System Upgrade

You got mud Harbeths are warmly voiced loudspeakers, PS Warm, Cables warm.

Have you considered a cleaner more efficient loudspeaker?

How big is your room? Musical preferences? Do you play loud or moderate.

A less colored more full range more efficient loudspeaker would maxamize the rest of your investment and you would gain on all fronts. 

Can you go with a floorstander?

What part of the country are you?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

A hofer you have totally different gear. 

This gentlman has two really viable choices change the speakers or change the amp which then might necessitate other changes.

A pair of Focal  Sopras or Persona 3F are both more efficient have deeper bass and greater dynamics and the Personas would sound fantastic with the rest of his gear they are 92db efficient.

The Leben gear is excellent moving to more exciting speakers will perk up that system.  A 7db gain in efficiency is huge and his leben would be coasting not to mention the brighter sound of the Paradigms would complement his warm sounding components.

Ahofer, we have ATC SCM 19MK II an 85db efficient loudspeaker, we play them very well with an Naim Uniti Atom a 40 watt amplifer. The Naim is punchy and warm so it adds life to the ATC which tend to sound clean and the Naim’s amplifier stage creates a punchy sound with the ATC. So we have seen first hand that a low powered amplifier can drive and derive excellent sound from an inefficient set of loudspeakers.

We have no issues getting them to sound good and play loud enough in a decent sized room 18 by 14 with a 10 foot ceiling.

This gentleman allready has expensive cables, dac, and amplifier.

The issue is what we call mud: warm speakers, warm digital, warm cabling, this all creates a sound which isn’t involving and requires you to raise the volume to hear details.

The corollary is sizzle systems: bright speakers, bright amp, bright source, bright cabling = fatiguing sound, over sibillent sound.

He needs to rebalance the system by adding in products which add more detail or sparkle to the sound.

Our suggestion is to borrow two cables from the Cable Company, a set of interconnects and a set of speaker cables, willing to bet dollars to donuts without changing anything else just changing the cabling will bring the system back into some sense of balance.

We are not saying that more power won’t be a good thing, more power is never a bad thing, howerver, we have seen many 85-87db loudspeakers sound fantastic with a low powered amplifier and still get to both a decent volume level and get great sound until you run out of steam and the amplifier distorts.

When you have to turn up the volume to hear detail means details are being lost, we have systems that sound fantastic at lower volume levels, we look for high resolution loudspeakers such as KEF, or Paradigm, or Focal, or others, that preserve all the details in the music and then match those cleaner speakers with warmer electronics.

It is all about system synergy.

The Leben is a terrific amplifier if this gentleman moved into a more efficient loudspeaker he would be in win win scenario.

His loudspeakers are not efficient, and they don’t go that low in terms of bass, for the same real estate as a stand mount he could move into a floor stander with both greater efficiency and more deep bass.

Harbeth is one of those love hate brands, we are personally not fans way too colored, and although they have stunning cabinetry, for the price of $7k plus a set of stands there are tons of great floorstanding loudspeakers that will offer more overall sound for the dollar.

Harbeth does have a very musical sound and can be very engaging, which is their draw, so this gentleman has a few choices;

1: Change amplifier: now he has to find an amplifier which will work well with his other choices and this amplifier may not have the midrange magic and soundstaging that a good tube amplifer has.

2: Change loudspeakers: audition a set of more efficient 90-92+ efficient loudspeakers that work well with a 32 watt tube amplifier, here again you have the possibility of gaining both greater efficiency you may also gain a loudspeaker which has greater dynamic range, more bass and may have a more lifelike sound.

3: Change cabling to a brighter sounding set of cables which will help rebalance the sound by adding more detail and clarity, brighter sounding cabling is AQ, Nordost. Netural Wireworld, Wamer Cardas, Transparent, MIT, Kubala, Shunyata. He has warm sounding cables, he need to try brighter more detailed one hence the AQ or Nordost recommendation.

We have heard systems with plenty of power that played loud and still had no detail, if you obsure information playing louder doesn’t fix that problem.

If you are going to demo amplifiers you don’t need necessarily 300 watts you need an amplifier which will drive those speakers well and provide the sound quality you are looking for. Please test our suggestion by borrowing some cables and then seeing if you get the detail back before changing the amplifier. If the cabling does the trick you are good to go. Then if you still want more then you should try a different amplifier but also consider if the Harbeths are really the best speakers for your application.


Good luck OP.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

No its not just power if  you follow that for these speakers you should be able to get

86db  1w 1m
89db  2w 
92db  4w
95db  8w
98db  16w
101db 32w 

You might start to soft clip but unless you are not able to get a decent volume level the issue is not power.

When you have to raise the volume to hear detail and get any drive you have a lack of resolution.

This is not to say these are not all excellent components tbey are all voiced on the richer side of things.

Borrow a set of Nordost cables,  between the dac and a set of  Nordost speaker cables and then see how the system sounds. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

OP please try to borrow a few sets of interconnects and some speaker cables and just change those first and see what you think.

Another question are you using stock power cables and do you have a power conditioner. Power cables make a very large difference in the sound of a system.

The other question is are you working with a dealer and if so what was your dealers response to all of this?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Ahofer cables and amps are incredible tone controls, so is adding spices to foods, adding more or unusual ingredients to a well known dish to alter the flavor to taste.

Came up with the Coffe Drinkers School of Audiology many years ago.

Take a great high end coffe bean, crystal clear filtered water, and a good coffee machine now make and serve your coffee.

Coffee drinker One: Total neuturalilty camp: Pure, hot coffee no milk, no sugar = the detail guy wants to hear everything no coloration great recordings sound great, bad recordings sound horrible.

Other end of the spectrum: Coffee Drinker Two:  The sweet Coffee guy or the polar opposite of Coffee drinker One:

Take 1/4 cup of cream, six table spoons of sugar, yes the high end coffee is still there you just can’t taste it, the flavor is predominantly rich, mellow, sweet, but very little coffee flavor, a new creation. This listener craves the ability to never have to have any listener fatique everything and every recording sounds good, this kind of listener likes a rich tube amplifier, warm loudspeakers, lot of vinyl, the system sound lovely but doesn’t sound like real music.

Middle Ground Coffee Drinker Three: Standard cup with the bite removed: the slightly toned down version of neutral. This listener strives for a system that sounds real but the top end is a bit warmer. The Coffee analog is a touch of milk or cream with a bit of sugar. This listener craves a realistic listening experience with a just a bit of euponic coloration. Cymbols crash, high hats have bit but not too much.

Now you have three points on the curve, hyper detailed on one extreme, on the other side hyper warm on the other end, and the more middle ground, neutral with a bit of softening. Of course there are more points on the scale but these are given to illustrate a point of reference. 

Audio is like cooking we start with a great set of speakers as the speaker determines the kind of amplifier and the power required, we demo many in our floor: Kef, Paradigm, ATC, Quad, Golden Ear, etc, then we demo different electronics, first we start with solid state inegrateds, then separates, then tubes or possibly hybrid systems with a tube preamp with a solid state power amplifier,  then we demo different digital front ends.

So yes tube amplifiers sound different then solid state, some solid state amplifiers are bright, some are warm, some cables are bright, some neutral some are warm, same with digitial.

A good system requires carefull matching and balancing all of the parts, which is why for this gentleman we said start with a simple switch to brighter cleaner sounding interconnects, which are easy to ship and demo.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Two left ears ever listen to a Murata supertweeter?

If a speaker needs a super tweeter it is not going to be voiced on the lively side now is it?

mdmdwyer

Saw too that  you sold your Leben, we wish you would have tried some different cables first but that is a different matter.

We also saw you are in New York City. Our shop, Audio Doctor is right across the water from you 3miles away in Jersey City.

We have one of the best selections of gear on the East Coast:

We have a few amplifiers that you might really like, the new Krell K300i at $7k is a 150 watts Class A in power, and is very tube like in its presentation. It is also quite compact. 

We also have the Norma Revo 140 another great intergrated amplifier very open and full sounding at $7k.

We have the Italian Tube line Synthesis A100T which is a $7k 100 Watt KT 66 another stunning sounding tube amplifier.

We also have the Micromega and Naim products. 

Plus Electrocompaniet, T+A. Cary, Conrad Johnson, and a few others.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

The Krell K300i is way more tube like then the Luxman if you like the Leben sound you would love the krell, many people who have heard the K300i can not believe just how good it is even compared to much more expensive gear.

The Gryphon is a bit dark sounding however their gear is fantastic.

If you like tubes the Synthesis A 100t is amazing and powerful and an outstanding buy for the price.

If you can bring over your speakers you can hear 6 integrated amplifiers in your price range.

Krell k300i
Norma Revo 140
Naim Uniti Nova
Micromega M100
T A Dac 8/Amp 8
Synthesis A100T

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor