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Strange turntable/speaker issue

OK, this is going to be lengthy, but here goes....

I have a feeling someone else has experienced this, and want to get some advice in how to correct this issue.

Some background; I could not keep myself from wondering just how good the old vinyl I had boxed up for years would sound compared to my digital set-up, which sounds pretty good to me right now. But, out of curiosity, I finally dragged up my old turntable that has been stored in my basement for 15 years (since I moved in), and probably have not used it in at least 25-30 years total. Originally purchased in the mid 70’s, it is a basic Kenwood KD-2055 with the heavy composite ‘granite’ base. After getting it set-up, I realized very quickly the old Ortofon OM 5E cartridge I installed in the mid-80’s was not going to ‘cut it’, and could not compete with my CD’s, files, or streaming set-up. So, after doing a bit of research, and not knowing yet if going back to some vinyl listening would stick, I purchased a Grado Premier Red, mounted it in the shell, set it up, and yes, it is a vast improvement. Much better overall dynamic range, soundstage, imaging, etc. than the Ortofon 5E. I thought to myself, ‘this may just work’. But, as I was checking some things out, I realized my Vandersteen 2CE’s were actually moving quite a bit (volume was a bit high, but not overly so). That is no easy task. I got back behind the Vandy’s and the rear 10” acoustic coupler was actually moving in and out at a fairly rapid speed, thus causing the speakers to actually move on the anchor stands quite noticeably. Now, this was not really effecting the sound, or creating sound in and of itself, but it can’t be good. First thing I thought was I had misconnected the cartridge leads at the shell, so double checked, and they are connected as per the Grado instructions. BTW, this could have been happening with the old Ortofon as well, but I may not have noticed. Overall, while playing music, the turntable also seems highly sensitive to moving/walking around as the music was playing without distortion. I don’t have to tell you, this does not happen with CD’s or digital files.

I have my turntable on top of a pretty beefy steel frame with wood shelves 60” long ‘TV stand’, as yes, my system also acts as a ‘home theater’ setup, as well as a 2 channel set-up for music. The Vandy 2CE’s are my ‘front’ and 2 channel speakers driven separately by a B&K 125.2 power amp. The lowest shelf of this unit consists of CD storage, the middle shelf my B&K amp, Yamaha V871 receiver (I use as my pre in 2 channel, although it does little as the front channel pre-out’s go directly to the B&K, and while playing music I run in ‘pure direct’), CD player, and PS Audio DAC which all my CD’s, files, and streaming runs through. The top shelf is my TV, Elac center speaker, and my turntable. At this time I am using the Yamaha phono stage (that could change soon, as I think a dedicated phono pre-amp would help things a lot). The TV/equipment stand sits directly to the side of the right speaker, not between the Vandy’s, as they are on each side of my fireplace. The turntable is about 4 1/2’ from the right speaker, and right about the same level of the Vandy’s front 8” woofer.

So, all that said, I have a feeling what I am getting is sonic feedback between the speaker and turntable, perhaps with the cartridge acting as a microphone getting hit with the sound waves from the right speaker, even with the dust cover down. Because of room and layout constraints, I have very limited locations for all this stuff, so not sure a relocation of the turntable is really possible, and if I did, would have to get long male/female RCA interconnect extensions to get back to my Yamaha, or any future phono pre-amp, which would still have to run back to the Yamaha probably utilizing the analog Audio 2 inputs, as the Audio 1 inputs are serving the PS Audio DAC.

So, is sonic feedback what I am witnessing? Or could it be something else? And is there any easy solution? I doubt isolation feet will solve anything if feedback between the right speaker and turntable is the problem.


128x128bkeske
bkeske's avatar
bkeske OP
5,593 posts
 
@millercarbon Thanks for the additional insight.

I had a pretty good feeling the styrofoam, or large tiles, etc. would not work. What I wanted to see was if the material I tried had any effect at all. It did. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t just a ‘sonic feedback’ issue between the speaker and cart. As I say, what I found was that anything I put under the original feet made the problem worse, not better, nor more importantly, the same. Instead, the table became much more unstable sonically and made the rumble worse, especially with the styrofoam. That was incredibly bad, and the coupler was pulsating stronger than any other condition. I’m no expert in this, but I would think if the problem was primarily a sonic reaction between the speaker and table/cart, these physical base/feet changes would not have had the extreme results they did. After finding the failure of some of the original built-in feet isolation design, I had a pretty good idea this was more a physical than sonic problem. And that the sonic problems and instability are a result of the physical issues, not the other way around. I think.

I must say, you have some seemingly odd ideas, but it may be worth a shot. I still have a bag of sand from filling my Vandy anchor stands, so that’s easy, if I can find something to put it in and test it.

And yes, after thinking more about it, I don’t think I want to isolate the speakers at the feet. I think that will just degrade the speaker performance.

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Odd ideas. Good one. Made me chuckle. Thanks. You have much to learn, grasshopper.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/sandbox-style-isolation

Between actually trying stuff however odd and trying to figure things out by reasoning alone I'll take trying stuff out any day. This site is chock full of the most horribly wrong ideas that sound good enough to have convinced people, almost always people who can't be bothered to actually check them out. So you're making mistakes but learning. Its the but learning part that counts. Good for you.

Like I said these things are all tuned. What you got is like an old grandfather clock that wobbles. Can't keep good time because every time the pendulum swings it causes the whole clock to sway, the whole thing rocking back and forth. Your turntable is doing exactly that, only at a frequency and amplitude that makes it hard to see. But that's what's going on. That's why your experiments failed. What you did was just like putting styrofoam under the already wobbly clock. It only wobbles worse and more.

Place that clock (or turntable) firmly in some nice packed down sand though, now its stuck. No more rocking. 

Remember though its not only the turntable that moves like this. The whole rack, or wherever else you put it, everything no matter what is going to oscillate. Its simply a question of how much and at what frequency. Why electron microscopes require specialized vibration control. What looks good at one scale is a nightmare at another.

So on one scale you control the very fine low amplitude vibrations with the sand particles that shift against each other dissipating that vibration into heat. This requires only a fairly thin layer of sand. Mixing in oil actually helps keep the grains from packing solid while allowing them to shift microscopically, which is just what you want. 

But you also want stability on a larger scale, like the shifting vibrations of your old house. For this you want mass. The more mass the more energy it takes to make it move, or the smaller the movement for a given input. Most people just use as much as they have space and time and money for. But you could work it out mathematically if you know the dimensions of your rack and enough materials science and physics.

So maybe not as odd an idea as it seemed at first glance.


bkeske's avatar
bkeske OP
5,593 posts
 
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to listen and learn.

In my business as a designer, I often suggest ideas to clients and they look at me like I have 3 heads, as they are out of the norm of what everyone else does, or what they have seen others have. The challange is to get them to trust me given my experience of what has worked in the past, and what hasn’t, explaining my previous clients were just as quizzical of my initial suggestions, but not after they implemented them.

Yes, after 40+ years of not really listening to vinyl and using this old table, it is indeed like learning all over again, as the rest of my system has evolved way beyond then.

BTW, I received the oil today, and all is lubed.

I also, after much thought, decided to purchase the Mani today from Schiit.

bkeske's avatar
bkeske OP
5,593 posts
 
Just an update.

Recieved the high pass filters, but left them in their package in case I wanted to return them. Recieved the Schiit Mani today and hooked it up. Prior to all this, I took all the stock ‘absorbsion’ feet off the Kenwood, as 3 of 4 of them had collapsed. I purchased separate turntable isolation pads from ‘High End Audio’ out of Brooklyn NY I believe. Set those under the table replacing the stock feet, thinking it I may need these anyway if I ended up putting the table in a tray of sand.

Once I put these isolation pads under the table, it reduced the rumble by a fair amount unless I really cranked up the sound. After installing the Schiit, the overall sound really came ‘alive’ vs the internal phono stage, so for me, think it was a good choice. So, I decided to go ahead and try the high-pass filters placing them at the input of the Schiit, and it does not sound bad at all. They are 20hz (and below) filters and the bass from my Vandies, and my sub are still working fine without, and it seems without degrading any frequencies above. So now I can crank the volume way up with no rumble or speaker ‘shake’ or movement whatsoever. With the phono set-up I have now, I think this may work.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and suggestions, I believe they lead me to a good solution, and am still considering the tray of sand, which may allow for the removal of the filters as well.

Now to look for some new old vinyl to purchase.


bkeske's avatar
bkeske OP
5,593 posts
 
Another update.

After spending more and more on ‘new’ albums (mostly classical) I realized, stubbornly, that my old Kenwood was just not ‘cutting it’. Since I bought it in the mid-70’s it had issues with maintaining proper speed, and I finally decided it was time to replace. Still not wanting to spend a fortune, I found a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut for a good deal refurbished by an authorized dealer.

Received it, set it up, installed my Grado Red, and ready to go. Unfortunately, some of the issues with the old Kenwood came back, and more. Just very ‘unstable’, especially when walking around my room. In many areas were I walked it created a lot of ‘shaking sound’. I even removed the stock feet and used pads with no real improvement (but the pads did do a better job than the stock feet). Other than that though, it sounded great. So, what the heck. Why is my TT location so sensitive? Going back to what millercarbon suggested, I purchased a tray, filled it with sand to hopefully create more mass, but that didn’t really help, but I thought it would. I also have a Bernard Haitink/Strauss/Concertgebouw album that was for some reason unplayable. It created dangerous sounding speaker distortion, yet other albums did not do the same. Baffled.

I was considering either a wall mount stand or getting a treated wood post and 3/4” plywood to place in my basement and under the floor joists of my stand location, thinking I simply had to reinforce the floor. But, just prior to that, I was considering a record weight. Never having one over the years, thought they were more a gimmick than anything else. I set out to study which one to purchase without spending a ton on a potential non-solution to a non-problem. During that bit of research, I became more comfortable with the idea of a record clamp vs a weight. So, bought one; an inexpensive clamp made by Record Doctor via Audio Advisor. I wasn’t expecting this to cure the previously mentioned issues, just something else I wanted to explore.

Got it yesterday, put on a record, clamped it, and for goodness sakes, everything ‘stabilized’, both physically and sonically. I can walk across my floor without disturbance, and just played that Haitink album without a hint of distortion. I’m amazed that a $26 clamp could have such an effect through the system, my set-up, and the overall sound.

I’ll keep the tray with sand as it can’t be harmful, and I’ll keep it at its current location on my equipment stand, as a simple cheap clamp seemed to solve a lot.

Go figure.
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